Thanks for the explanation. It doesn't help much though. Either way you still have individuals praying to their spirits for their own reason, and who help them as far as they are concerned.
How could you tell them they are wrong and to stop. I mean as far as they are concerned, they could convert to Catholicism and still never have to change their practices, they'd just change the names. How can you renew your mind if you keep doing the same things just under a different name.
Well, that's what has happened. It from African religion (Yoruba) to using Catholic imagery to hide their religion from the Christians and then to a sort of popular syncretism that blends Christianity and Vodou. I do not know how people reconcile a distant God (Bondye*) in Vodou with a God who was so involved and loving that He condescended to become Man and die to be with us. It seems a far greater difficulty to resolve than the role of the lwa in the spiritual order.
I quote from Chesterton, who is discussing the liberal maxim that all religions look different but teach the same thing. Instead, he says, all religions look the same but teach different things. I think it applies to this SDA / JW / Fundamentalist belief that Christianity must look different from all other religions, otherwise it is "pagan". This doesn't make sense to other Christians because the difference about Christianity is not that it looks different from other religions but that it is true.
Originally Posted by GK Chesterton, "Orthodoxy"
There is a phrase of facile liberality uttered again and again at ethical societies and parliaments of religion: "the religions of the earth differ in rites and forms, but they are the same in what they teach." It is false; it is the opposite of the fact. The religions of the earth do not greatly differ in rites and forms; they do greatly differ in what they teach. It is as if a man were to say, "Do not be misled by the fact that the CHURCH TIMES and the FREETHINKER look utterly different, that one is painted on vellum and the other carved on marble, that one is triangular and the other hectagonal; read them and you will see that they say the same thing." The truth is, of course, that they are alike in everything except in the fact that they don't say the same thing. An atheist stockbroker in Surbiton looks exactly like a Swedenborgian stockbroker in Wimbledon. You may walk round and round them and subject them to the most personal and offensive study without seeing anything Swedenborgian in the hat or anything particularly godless in the umbrella. It is exactly in their souls that they are divided. So the truth is that the difficulty of all the creeds of the earth is not as alleged in this cheap maxim: that they agree in meaning, but differ in machinery. It is exactly the opposite. They agree in machinery; almost every great religion on earth works with the same external methods, with priests, scriptures, altars, sworn brotherhoods, special feasts. They agree in the mode of teaching; what they differ about is the thing to be taught. Pagan optimists and Eastern pessimists would both have temples, just as Liberals and Tories would both have newspapers. Creeds that exist to destroy each other both have scriptures, just as armies that exist to destroy each other both have guns.
And another quote I like soon after that passage, in referring to the alleged similarities between Christianity and Buddhism:
Originally Posted by ibid
It is rather like alluding to the obvious connection between the two ceremonies of the sword: when it taps a man's shoulder, and when it cuts off his head. It is not at all similar for the man.
Sure, every religion (perhaps save Buddhism) has a God or gods, altars, sacrifices, priests, prayers, statues, holy days, pilgrimages, etc. That's what makes them religions.
In CS Lewis' essay "Priestesses in the Church?", he opens by referring to this passage from "Pride and Prejudice":
Originally Posted by Jane Austen, "Pride and Prejudice"
"I should like balls infinitely better," she replied, "if they were carried on in a different manner; but there is something insufferably tedious in the usual process of such a meeting. It would surely be much more rational if conversation instead of dancing were made the order of the day."
"Much more rational, my dear Caroline, I dare say, but it would not be near so much like a ball."
I cannot really think of anything in the Christian religion which is particularly unique. Chesterton says that:
Originally Posted by GK. Chesterton, "Heretics"
There is one broad fact about the relations of Christianity and Paganism which is so simple that many will smile at it, but which is so important that all moderns forget it. The primary fact about Christianity and Paganism is that one came after the other.
...
There is only one thing in the modern world that has been face to face with Paganism; there is only one thing in the modern world which in that sense knows anything about Paganism: and that is Christianity. That fact is really the weak point in the whole of that hedonistic neo-Paganism of which I have spoken. All that genuinely remains of the ancient hymns or the ancient dances of Europe, all that has honestly come to us from the festivals of Phoebus or Pan, is to be found in the festivals of the Christian Church. If any one wants to hold the end of a chain which really goes back to the heathen mysteries, he had better take hold of a festoon of flowers at Easter or a string of sausages at Christmas. Everything else in the modern world is of Christian origin, even everything that seems most anti-Christian. The French Revolution is of Christian origin. The newspaper is of Christian origin. The anarchists are of Christian origin. Physical science is of Christian origin. The attack on Christianity is of Christian origin. There is one thing, and one thing only, in existence at the present day which can in any sense accurately be said to be of pagan origin, and that is Christianity.
The real difference between Paganism and Christianity is perfectly summed up in the difference between the pagan, or natural, virtues, and those three virtues of Christianity which the Church of Rome calls virtues of grace. The pagan, or rational, virtues are such things as justice and temperance, and Christianity has adopted them. The three mystical virtues which Christianity has not adopted, but invented, are faith, hope, and charity.
Most of the rites of Christianity have their pagan counterparts. The Church Fathers were well aware of the fact that the pagans practiced baptisms as much as St. John the Forerunner and the Christians did and had other similar gods and similar rites. Even today, the Hindus have the Vedas, the Christians have the Bible. Pagans have priests, Christians have priests. Pagans say prayers, Christians say prayers. The difference between true and false religion is exemplified by the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal:
Originally Posted by 1/3Ki 18:22-
And Elias coming to all the people, said: How long do you halt between two sides? If the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people did not answer him a word. And Elias said again to the people: I only remain a prophet of the Lord: but the prophets of Baal are four hundred and fifty men. Let two bullocks be given us, and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it upon wood, but put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under it. Call on the names of your gods, and I will call on the name of my Lord: and the God that shall answer by fire, let him be God. And all the people answering, said: A very good proposal. Then Elias said to the prophets of Baal: Choose you one bullock and dress it first, because you are many: and call on the names of your gods; but put no fire under.
And they took the bullock, which he gave them, and dressed it: and they called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying: O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered: and they leaped over the altar that they had made. And when it was now noon, Elias jested at them, saying: Cry with a louder voice: for he is a god; and perhaps he is talking, or is in an inn, or on a journey; or perhaps he is asleep, and must be awaked. So they cried with a loud voice, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till they were all covered with blood. And after midday was past, and while they were prophesying, the time had come of offering sacrifice, and there was no voice heard, nor did any one answer, nor regard them as they prayed. Elias said to all the people: Come unto me. And the people coming near unto him, he repaired the altar of the Lord, that was broken down:
And he took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob to whom the word of the Lord came, saying: Israel shall be your name. And he built with the stones an altar to the name of the Lord: and he made a trench for water, of the breadth of two furrows, round about the altar. And he laid the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid it upon the wood. And he said: Fill four buckets with water, and pour it upon the burnt offering, and upon the wood. And again he said: Do the same the second time. And when they had done it the second time, he said: Do the same also the third time. And they did so the third time. And the water run round about the altar, and the trench was filled with water.
And when it was now time to offer the holocaust, Elias, the prophet, came near and said: O Lord God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Israel, show this day that you are the God of Israel, and I your servant, and that according to your commandment I have done all these things. Dear me, O Lord, hear me: that this people may learn that you are the Lord God, and that you have turned their heart again. Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the holocaust, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw this, they fell on their faces, and they said: The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.
That is the difference between Christianity and paganism.
---
* Someone earlier referred to the Vodou God as "La Grande Maître", I have not heard that. Perhaps it is that in one of the similar religions like Santeria. The name I do know is "Bondye" which is the Creole form of the French "Bon Dieu" -- "Good God". I was confused, I had heard the name "Gran-Met" before, I didn't make the obvious French-Creole connection. Gran-Met is the feminine aspect of God similar to "Shekinah" in Judaism.
Last edited by PilgrimToChrist; 23rd January 2010 at 12:07 AM.
That may be true, but it doesn't answer the question as to if what they are doing is wrong in regards to asking the spirits to intercede for them
Then again, how are the saints "people" When you die it's your spirit that goes to heaven right? You leave your body behind isn't that correct? From that articles those people don't see much difference.
PPL don't stop being PPL because they no longer inhabit a physical body.
There's a difference between people who are in heaven and the spirit of a rock,earth, wind, fire.
The Saints are those that have shown heroic christian virtue. A spirit of a rock, wind, water can't do that.
__________________ Mary Pray for us, now and at the hour of our death.
I cannot really think of anything in the Christian religion which is particularly unique.
Surely I have misunderstood your saying this? Surely you jest. If not, please allow me to explain.
Chesterton says that:
Most of the rites of Christianity have their pagan counterparts. The Church Fathers were well aware of the fact that the pagans practiced baptisms as much as St. John the Forerunner and the Christians did and had other similar gods and similar rites. Even today, the Hindus have the Vedas, the Christians have the Bible. Pagans have priests, Christians have priests. Pagans say prayers, Christians say prayers.
I don't have the reference, but one of the Councils said to the effect, when we go into a new land, let their fathers remain. IOW, as pointed out, rites were melded. Mithraism for example.
We'd have to look elsewhere and to others for Christianity.
The difference between true and false religion is exemplified by the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal:
That is the difference between Christianity and paganism.
Not that the rites are the same because if so, the prophets of Baal would have persisted. They won't.
__________________ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
Honestly, I appreciate your response. And yes we can agree that voodoo is plain wrong becase it is out of the bounds of Christianity. But your response still seems to be the same. Prayer is really speaking. It's what we call talking to God.
If you send up a petetion to a spirit, calling it prayer or not, what is the difference between somone who practices voodoo.
What's the difference between someone who prays to Jesus or Allah or Krishna or Zeus? If you see a difference there, you see that the similarities between lwa and the saints is a fleeting one at best. Likewise, the Greeks had daimones and the Romans had geniuses. Libations were given to the daimones, as to the chthonic deities and other lesser spirits.
The only thing that connects Vodou and Christianity is the fact that they are blended in some people's lives in Haiti. Unless a Haitian responds, especially one who is a Christian and vodouisant, we won't know how they justify their religious stand.
It is commonly reported throughout Israel's history in the Bible that the people would adopt pagan gods alongside YHWH. Apart from Baal already mentioned, there is the examples of Asherah and the idols the men were carrying when Judas Maccabeus found them slain by the enemy. The practice of practicing both Christianity and Vodou in Haiti is thus not unique. It doesn't mean the two are compatible in truth. The Episcopalians have a history of this syncretism (most recently with the election to the episcopate of the Rev. Kevin Thew Forrester, a "lay ordained" (confirmed) Zen Buddhist), leading to the epithet "Episcopagan". In general, the term is "Christo-pagan" (compare to the religious conflict in "Beowulf" or in King Arthur, especially in the film "The Mists of Avalon").
One of the biggest problems with converting the heathen has not been getting them to worship Jesus, it has been convincing them to only worship the Christian Trinity. Paganism is used to adopting gods from other religions. For example, the cult of Isis was very popular in Greece, alongside the native gods. So syncretism has been the norm, even before the advent of Christ. It was hard to stop the Israelites from doing it and it's hard to stop people in many parts of the world from doing it.
It is wrong because the lwa do not belong in the Christian spiritual order. The Muslims have djinn (genies), who are spirits that are similar to angels/demons but distinct. Muslims say that Iblis (satan) was a djinn, not an angel. Like humans and angels, djinn have free will and can be good or evil. So there are three created spiritual beings in Islam -- angels, djinn and humans. But to adopt djinn into Christianity would not make sense as there is no tradition of it there. Likewise, the lwa/orishas are proper to African/Caribbean religions and should not be incorporated into Christianity.
Vodou and Christianity should stay separate and not be mixed.
Surely I have misunderstood your saying this? Surely you jest. If not, please allow me to explain.
Explain. Prayers, priests, virgins, altars, sacrifices, holy days, festivals, sacred places, pilgrimages, sacramentals, baptisms, etc. all exist in most other religions.
Originally Posted by Philip Yancey, "What's So Amazing About Grace?"
During a British conference on comparative religions, experts from around the world debated what, if any, belief was unique to the Christian faith. They began eliminating possibilities. Incarnation? Other religions had different versions of gods' appearing in human form. Resurrection? Again, other religions had accounts of return from death. The debate went on for some time until C. S. Lewis wandered into the room. "What's the rumpus about?" he asked, and heard in reply that his colleagues were discussing Christianity's unique contribution among world religions. Lewis responded, "Oh, that's easy. It's grace."
After some discussion, the conferees had to agree. The notion of God's love coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of humanity. The Buddhist eight-fold path, the Hindu doctrine of karma, the Jewish covenant, and the Muslim code of law -- each of these offers a way to earn approval. Only Christianity dares to make God's love unconditional.
My point is about how the externals of the religion are common to other religions but the internals, the truth of the religion, is different.
I don't have the reference, but one of the Councils said to the effect, when we go into a new land, let their fathers remain. IOW, as pointed out, rites were melded.
I don't know of a Council which discussed the issue of Christianization but there is a letter from Pope St. Gregory the Great to the Venerable Bede which says that the pagan temples should not be destroyed but rather the idols destroyed and the whole place re-consecrated and cleansed with holy water. This way the pagans would be more apt to return to their former temples for Christian rites.
Not that the rites are the same because if so, the prophets of Baal would have persisted. They won't.
The externals in the ritual are the same for both religions and for the Christian religion today -- a priest, an altar, a sacrifice, prayers and a God. To say that Christianity shares many similarities with pagan religions is simply to say that they are both religions. It does not deny the divine Truth of the Christian religion.
So I was reading this article on Voodoo in Haiti today and found the outlined similarities between Catholicism and Voodoo to be rather interesting, and disturbing.
Simply put, the article likens voodoo to Catholicism. They say that praying to spirits is no different then praying to the saints as the catholics do.And the head voodoo priest says that Haiti is a voodoo country despite the fact that 80% (I believe that was the number) or so of the individuals claim to be Christian.
What's your opinion on this article? For those of you who pray to saints, is it wrong for the hatians who practice voodoo to pray to spirits?
I'm not an expert on Voodoo nor do I want to be, so I couldn't give you an opinion on whether it is similiar or not. I have always understood the Old Testament as condemning believers from communicating with the dead or those who have died. Rather, we are to pray only to God.
It seems like whenever Israel started to get its act together in the Old Testament mediums and spiritist would be banned.
Before people dismiss Haitians who practice Christianity and Vodou simultaneously as simply ignorant, look how many people supposedly educated and even pastors/priests and bishops and practice both Christianity and Freemasonry! Vodouisants say, "My mother and her mother and everyone practices Vodou, how can it be wrong?" Freemasons say, "My father and his father and everyone practices Freemasonry, how can it be wrong?" Defenders of both say it is compatible with Christianity and yet it is a great deception from the devil.
Nope, it doesn't bother me at all that false religions take aspects from the ture. It's what Satan does, he mixes a little bit of truth with error and produces a doctrine of death.
I agree. That is what is going on here when people mix up voodoo with the Catholic Church.
Originally Posted by Stryder06
The thing is that to dispute the false you need to have the truth. How do you tell a person in voodoo that they can't pray to spirits when you do the same thing?
We don't do the same thing thing, but as you say in your post, Satan mixes a little bit of truth with error and produces a doctrine of death, but instead of being able to understand that, you're grasping on to those little bits of error mixed with truth.
Originally Posted by Stryder06
Indeed you are not. Judgment comes from God which is based on His word. Nothing in His word allows for praying to dead people.
God's word is far more than what you have in your Bible. God's Word is alive and working to reveal the truth today as much as 2000 years ago.
Originally Posted by Stryder06
Now you have me confused. From what I thought, the spirit left the body and went to heaven at death. The spirit is alive but the body is dead right? So either way you're praying to spirits. OR do those who die receive a body in heaven?
Do you know what those who are alive in heaven are like at this very moment? What does Moses look like? What does Elijah look like? What does Lazarus look like?
I cannot tell God what is only his to decide.
Last edited by Yarddog; 23rd January 2010 at 10:11 AM.
I'm not an expert on Voodoo nor do I want to be, so I couldn't give you an opinion on whether it is similiar or not. I have always understood the Old Testament as condemning believers from communicating with the dead or those who have died. Rather, we are to pray only to God.
It seems like whenever Israel started to get its act together in the Old Testament mediums and spiritist would be banned.
True. Mediums and spiritists are forbidden. We are not allowed to practice seances, look what happened with the King Saul calling up Samuel. But intercessory prayer is different.
We are also forbidden from practicing divinization, yet God used the Urim and Thummim (lots) to express His will to Israel. The Apostles also used lots to choose St. Matthias. So there is an obvious distinction between divinization and the lots sanctioned by God.
We are also forbidden from making idols. The Israelites were not as violently iconoclastic as the Muslims but it was forbidden to make an image of God. But then something happened -- God became incarnate. God had shown Himself to Abraham under the form of Three Men and wrestled with Jacob as an Angel and Daniel as the Ancient of Days. But Christ actually became a Man and redeemed the material world and thus images of Christ became licit and people could use icons and statues to worship God.
When we pray,
Originally Posted by Salve Regina
Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy. Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us and after this, our exile, show unto us the Blessed Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving, o sweet, Virgin Mary.
V. Pray for us, Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
(For Rosary)
V. Let us pray,
R. O God, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal salvation. Grant, we beseech Thee, that while meditating on these mysteries of the most holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that we may both imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.
This is not exactly a Ouija board seance or anything like that. We have a "great cloud of witnesses [=martyrs] over our heads", we have people praying for us in Heaven. We have our guardian angel and St. Michael fending off demons:
Originally Posted by Prayer to St. Michael
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host - by the Divine Power of God - cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits, who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
There is certainly a different tone to these prayers and a different purpose than prayers to, say, Erzulie Dantor to get revenge on an unfaithful husband. Saints are prayed to so that our prayers may be more pleasing to God through them and out of humility, knowing our sinful nature. We pray to the saints in order that they will pray for our salvation and for that of the whole world. There is a big difference between that and serving the lwa with rum, cigarettes, chickens and pigs in order to get what we want. Saints are not demigods, they're human beings like you and me but now in Heaven with God. Their prayers are therefore without the stain of selfishness and sin. That is why we implore them to pray for us.
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