Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Congregation > Christian Communities > The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox > St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian A place where members can debate with Orthodox Christians

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 18th December 2009, 11:48 PM
Contributor

Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 24th November 2007
Location: Bibliotheca Alexandrina
Posts: 6,313
Blessings: 896,103,176
Reps: 628,621,878,571,469,824 (power: 0)
Sphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond repute
Sphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond repute
Question The Greatest Heresy - Substitutionary Atonement...

This thread would benefit from an Orthodox perspective...

The Greatest Heresy



__________________


Last edited by Sphinx777; 19th December 2009 at 12:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Unread 19th December 2009, 12:10 AM
Contributor

Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 24th November 2007
Location: Bibliotheca Alexandrina
Posts: 6,313
Blessings: 896,103,176
Reps: 628,621,878,571,469,824 (power: 0)
Sphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond repute
Sphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond reputeSphinx777 has a reputation beyond repute
This one too, actually...

Does infant baptism count?



__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 20th December 2009, 06:14 PM
Ignatius21's Avatar
Can somebody please pass the incense?

Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 21st May 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 2,127
Blessings: 5,078,570
My Mood Cool
Reps: 322,671,470,575,095,488 (power: 322,671,470,575,103)
Ignatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond repute
Ignatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond repute
Perhaps you could provide said Orthodox perspective? "Substitutionary Atonement" carries a whole spectrum of meaning across and within Christian communions, so I predict that thread will go nowhere since everyone will assume they mean the same thing, but actually won't. Some will think "penal" and some will think "ransom" and some won't know what to think.

I know the Orthodox do not stress (or perhaps even acknowledge) the penal aspects, while many in the West (esp. Roman Catholic and Lutheran/Reformed) are almost obsessed with it. Your thoughts?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 20th December 2009, 06:23 PM
Christos Anesti's Avatar
Junior Member

35 Gender: Male Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Country: United States Member For 5 Years Steward
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 25th October 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,479
Blessings: 60,332,150
My Mood Bookworm
Reps: 569,012,350,439,908,736 (power: 569,012,350,439,917)
Christos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond repute
Christos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond reputeChristos Anesti has a reputation beyond repute
I know the Orthodox do not stress (or perhaps even acknowledge) the penal aspects, while many in the West (esp. Roman Catholic and Lutheran/Reformed
From what I understand it's not stressed in our theology but it does have its place as one metaphor (among others) describing the mystery of our salvation. The problem comes when people take the metaphor in an overly literal manner and stress it to the exclusion of the other methods of describing it. Maybe someone else can correct me if I am wrong here?
__________________

__________________
"The soul which bears abundant clusters of fruit is the one which has driven out of itself anything that says: 'This man is good, and that man is bad; this man is just and that man is a sinner.'... The barren soul is the one which judges its neighbor as being good or evil... When the grace visits us, the light of the love of our fellow-men, which is shed on the mirror of our heart, is such that we do not see in the world any sinners or evil men; but when we are under the influence of the demons, we are so much in the darkness of wrath that do not see a single good or upright man in the world."

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Simon of Taibutheh
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 20th December 2009, 08:19 PM
Knee V's Avatar
It's phonetic.

32 Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Party: US-Libertarian Country: United States Member For 5 Years Fisherman
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 17th September 2003
Location: Grayson County, TX
Posts: 7,423
Blessings: 1,167,198
Reps: 1,941,196,793,992,084,480 (power: 1,941,196,793,992,103)
Knee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond repute
Knee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Christos Anesti View Post
From what I understand it's not stressed in our theology but it does have its place as one metaphor (among others) describing the mystery of our salvation. The problem comes when people take the metaphor in an overly literal manner and stress it to the exclusion of the other methods of describing it. Maybe someone else can correct me if I am wrong here?
From my understanding, there is nothing there to correct. There is one mystery of our salvation, and many valid and useful, yet incomplete, ways of describing it.
__________________

__________________
"Aslan," said Lucy, "you're bigger."
"That is because you are older, little one," answered he.
"Not because you are?"
"I am not. But every year you grow, you will find me bigger."



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 20th December 2009, 09:07 PM
Protoevangel's Avatar
A time comes when silence is betrayal.

Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Member For 5 Years Commander
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 6th February 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,988
Blessings: 2,772,692
My Mood Fine
Blog Entries: 1
Reps: 973,209,301,254,785,920 (power: 973,209,301,254,807)
Protoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond repute
Protoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond reputeProtoevangel has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Christos Anesti View Post
From what I understand it's not stressed in our theology but it does have its place as one metaphor (among others) describing the mystery of our salvation. The problem comes when people take the metaphor in an overly literal manner and stress it to the exclusion of the other methods of describing it. Maybe someone else can correct me if I am wrong here?
As knee-v said, your post is exactly true. The penal/forensic understanding of Salvation was spoken of not only by Paul, but a number of Saints. But it is only one analogy of a reality that is greater than any analogy we could possibly come up with.
__________________

__________________
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 20th December 2009, 09:53 PM
Ignatius21's Avatar
Can somebody please pass the incense?

Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 21st May 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 2,127
Blessings: 5,078,570
My Mood Cool
Reps: 322,671,470,575,095,488 (power: 322,671,470,575,103)
Ignatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond repute
Ignatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Protoevangel View Post
As knee-v said, your post is exactly true. The penal/forensic understanding of Salvation was spoken of not only by Paul, but a number of Saints. But it is only one analogy of a reality that is greater than any analogy we could possibly come up with.
Well said. I'm accustomed to thinking almost entirely in penal terms because that's how I first heard it explained (from a Reformed perpective). I have come to realize that it was never THE only position in Christianity, not by a long shot, although it became codified in later confessions. "Atonement" became synonymous with "propitiate" or "satisfy," which is odd because it's more properly a synonymn of "reconcile" (at-one-ment)--make peace between to parties...the word does not say HOW that peace was made. I think the Roman emphasis on merit and punishment, esp. in the middle ages with purgatory and "temporal punishments," certainly polarized Luther and his sole focus became escaping the wrath and punishment of God. Rather than questioning that notion of punishment, the solution to the problem of purgatory was to have Christ be the one who received 100% of the punishment.

I have read a few Orthodox views that flat-out deny that punishment/wrath/etc. has any place in any view of atonement--I can't buy that any more than a view that says it is the ONLY valid view of atonement. Your responses here seem balanced and reasonable.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 20th December 2009, 10:02 PM
ArmyMatt's Avatar
Regular Member

32 Gender: Male Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 26th January 2007
Posts: 13,212
Blessings: 2,288,473
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 1,457,122,327,000,164,864 (power: 1,457,122,327,000,185)
ArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond repute
ArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond reputeArmyMatt has a reputation beyond repute
yeah the problem I think came when Anselm of Canterbury took it too literally.
__________________

__________________
"Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann

"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 20th December 2009, 10:19 PM
Knee V's Avatar
It's phonetic.

32 Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Party: US-Libertarian Country: United States Member For 5 Years Fisherman
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 17th September 2003
Location: Grayson County, TX
Posts: 7,423
Blessings: 1,167,198
Reps: 1,941,196,793,992,084,480 (power: 1,941,196,793,992,103)
Knee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond repute
Knee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond reputeKnee V has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by wturri78 View Post
I have read a few Orthodox views that flat-out deny that punishment/wrath/etc. has any place in any view of atonement
That is true to a certain extent. It is true in that ALL explanations are fundamentally wrong. But we're human beings who speak human languages using human words, and we need SOMETHING. They all have no place. But since ALL of them have no place, they all equally have a place.

...if that makes any sense...

I think that, just as there is an "anti-Roman" sentiment in many protestant circles causing them to reject anything that looks or smells Roman, there is an "anti-Western" sentiment in many Orthodox circles, causing them to revolt against any kind of terminology that is used in "Western" theological circles.

A word is only as powerful as the definition that we give it. So long as words are properly understood, there is no harm in using them.
__________________

__________________
"Aslan," said Lucy, "you're bigger."
"That is because you are older, little one," answered he.
"Not because you are?"
"I am not. But every year you grow, you will find me bigger."



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 22nd December 2009, 11:18 AM
Ignatius21's Avatar
Can somebody please pass the incense?

Gender: Male Married Faith: Eastern-Orthodox Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 21st May 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 2,127
Blessings: 5,078,570
My Mood Cool
Reps: 322,671,470,575,095,488 (power: 322,671,470,575,103)
Ignatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond repute
Ignatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond reputeIgnatius21 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by knee-v View Post
I think that, just as there is an "anti-Roman" sentiment in many protestant circles causing them to reject anything that looks or smells Roman, there is an "anti-Western" sentiment in many Orthodox circles, causing them to revolt against any kind of terminology that is used in "Western" theological circles.
I appreciate your saying this. I've noticed a certain amount of phobia in all corners, where we like to define ourselves in opposition to something else and react against whatever sounds too much like "them." Rome-a-phobia is rampant among some Protestants (can't light candles in church, you know, 'cause that's Catholic, and that means it's idolatry...) and it seems West-a-phobia may happen on the Orthodox side.

Neither is productive toward mutual understanding or productive conversation.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 AM.