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  #21  
Old 13th December 2009, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jase View Post
Sorry, you are incorrect.
The 'information' you present is a patchwork of really bad and illogical-historical myths people spread around about Christianity. It would not be found in any academic source.

Most of Christian tradition was created from Roman, Germanic, and Scandinavian tradition. One theory as to the origin of December 25th being Christ's birthday is it is claimed he was conceived on March 25, around the time of the vernal equinox. 9 months later is December 25, and the fact that pagan fertility rituals were often associated with Christianity, it made sense to have it coincide with those pagan rituals during the vernal equinox. In addition, the Romans created Dies Natalis Soli Invicti, or the birthday of the unconquered sun. This was the Roman festival of Sol Invictus (and coincided with the winter solstice) where the roman gods were worshipped and included merrymaking and gift-giving. Prior to the 2nd Century Christians did not celebrate Jesus' birthday, because birthdays were of pagan origin. In the 4th century, Christians wanted to start celebrating Christ's death at the same time as the winter solstice/Sol Invictus - which was December 25th.
Sol Invictus was celebrated on Dec. 25 long after Christians celebrated Christmas on that date.

You keep missing the fact that Christmas was already being celebrated long before the 4th Century. It isn't based on any pagan rituals or customs. If you want to speculate why Christians decided to move it to the winter solstice, you can do that all you want.

The romans also had a tradition of bringing evergreens indoors, which later spread to Germanic mythology in the form of tree worship, and eventually spread around the world as the Christmas Tree.
I'm sorry, but wherever you are getting your information is really, really bad. This is an example of using one slight bit of truth to come to a totally wrong conclusion.

The Christmas tree does come from Germany. Some Germany tribes did worship trees thousands of years ago. However, this has nothing to do with tree worship. It comes from plays in Germany a several centuries ago during the winter time in which they'd act out biblical scenes. They'd use evergreen trees to represent the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They'd hang apples on the evergreen. The plays were eventually banned and they brought the trees indoors. We hung apples on the tree growing up, although most people now just replace the apples with glass orbs.

Pagan Scandinavia had a winter festival known as Yule, and due to Northern Europe becoming Christianized last, pagan festivals had a strong influence on Christmas. Beginning in 900 AD, Yule became synonymous with Christmas. Scandinavia still calls Christmas, Jul.
Christmas was being celebrated long before Scandavia was Christianitized. If you want to argue that they've brought cultural traditions into Christmas, sure, some cultures maintained theri traditions in their new holidays.

Yes, the day moves in correlation to Passover. However, the monk Bede attributed the name Easter to the Germanic goddess Eostre. In celebration of that festival, Germanic culture included the use of Hares and eggs, which is where we get the tradition.
Yes, but the name of the holdiay is not Easter, it is Pascha. Just like "Christmas". It is a very English name. The Germans and English called Pascha easter after their old festival.


It is a well known fact that almost every Christian tradition, can be traced back to pagan origins.
That is not well know and it certainly isn't a fact. If you want to argue that each culture puts their own spin on Christian holidays, that's fine. It isn't that I have a problem with the idea- aspects of Judaism were hugely influenced by their pagan neighbors. It just isn't historically accurate.

Last edited by SpiritualAntiseptic; 13th December 2009 at 11:02 PM.
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  #22  
Old 13th December 2009, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jase View Post
No, December 25 was picked because it was the day of the winter solstice and Sol Invictus in Rome.
It had nothing to do with Sol Invictus, seeing how Christmas was celebrated on Dec. 25 long before it was.
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  #23  
Old 13th December 2009, 11:24 PM
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Does Jesus want His Name associated with these dead pagan gods?


What day of the year DIDN'T have some pagan celebration or holiday attached to it ? Should we refrain from having a Church calender all together because any of the days we choose for things might coincide with some Egyptian, Babylonian, Norse, Celtic, Assyrian, etc... pagan holiday?
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  #24  
Old 14th December 2009, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Eph4:26 View Post
There is no dispute that Jesus was not born on December 25th. The dispute arises in even celebrating something that is pagan in origin and is repackaged by neo-paganism into a materialistic Holiday.
Which of our holidays isn't pagan? Easter? Halloween?
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Old 18th December 2009, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SpiritualAntiseptic View Post
It had nothing to do with Sol Invictus, seeing how Christmas was celebrated on Dec. 25 long before it was.
The institution that invented the Mass for Christ doesn't even agree with this opinion.

Last edited by Eph4:26; 18th December 2009 at 07:56 AM.
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  #26  
Old 18th December 2009, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Epiphoskei View Post
Myths about Attus, Mithra, Dionysus, and Sol Invictus bear all the markings of being made up after Christian traditions had been well established to draw converts to Christianity back into paganism. Roman paganism had a serious crisis of identity in the last centuries before it was basically wiped out, and these kind of gimmicks appear to have been used as last ditch efforts to keep the temple cults going.
Epiphoskel, your hypothesis that the Mass for Christ preceded the pagan festivals celebrated during the winter solstice would be more credible if you would provide supportive evidence other than your opinion.

As stated elsewhere, you are entitled to your own set of opinions, but you are not entitled to your own set of facts. Now is an opportunity to provide facts worthy of commenting further.
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Old 18th December 2009, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SpiritualAntiseptic View Post
The Christmas tree does come from Germany.
There is another thread that I'm the OP that provides more information regarding the origin of the christmas tree -- hint it goes a way back before the pagan tree deity found in Germany -- than can be digested during the time it takes to eat a serving of christmas cookies and milk.
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  #28  
Old 18th December 2009, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Codger View Post
According to the timeline engineered by Frank Klassen - Jesus was born on April first 5BC. He died on April 15th 29AD the year of the 29th Jubilee. Personally I like having Christmas in December and wouldn't want to change. Since his birthday is in dispute I wonder if it really matters when we celebrate it. Granted a lot of the trappings of the Holiday is of pagan origin - I don't see it as pagan, I think it is a wonderful time of year.
Originally Posted by Harry3142 View Post
The opinion of conservative Christians is that Jesus was born shortly before Passover. The reason given for this is the description given in Luke of shepherds' being notified of his birth and getting to Bethlehem that same night. This normally would have been unlikely.

There was only one time of year when shepherds were that close to a village or town. That was when they separated the unblemished lambs from their flocks and brought them close to Jerusalem so that they could be sold to the faithful. It's interesting that The Lamb of God was more-than-likely born at the same time of year that lambs were sacrificed.
I'd agree about birth around spring equinox, which means conception around the longest day of light.

The reason, besides sheperds and flocks and passover is this-

Much of Hebrews talks about the tabernacle of Moses; it was a pattern of the true. The book explicitly makes the connection this way:

Hbr. 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

So, if the tabernacle is symbolism for Christ some 1500? years later, then when the tabernacle is first finished, it might likewise show Christ's birth.

Exd. 40:17 And it came to pass in the first month in the second year, on the first [day] of the month, [that] the tabernacle was reared up.

With the two cites above, scripture would agree.





Originally Posted by SpiritualAntiseptic View Post
December 25 was the winter solstice. That is why Christmas is celebrated on December 25, because it was the darkest day of the year, representing the darkest time in history in which Christ came into the world.

It is amazing just how much garbage is out there about December 25. People will believe just about anything, because it seems like an arbitrary date. The actual reason for the date is incredibly simple.
Winter solstice is 9 months after spring equinox. That's the connection.

If the tie-in with the tabernacle is true, then this (generally speaking)-

Jesus-conception summer solstice, spring equinox birth. (from longest day to equal day/night)

John the baptist (6 months earlier)-conception winter solstice, fall equinox birth (from longest night to equal night/day)
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  #29  
Old 18th December 2009, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Eph4:26 View Post
The institution that invented the Mass for Christ doesn't even agree with this opinion.
Benedict XVI doesn't agree with your opinion about what his institution believes.

Originally Posted by Eph4:26 View Post
Epiphoskel, your hypothesis that the Mass for Christ preceded the pagan festivals celebrated during the winter solstice would be more credible if you would provide supportive evidence other than your opinion.

As stated elsewhere, you are entitled to your own set of opinions, but you are not entitled to your own set of facts. Now is an opportunity to provide facts worthy of commenting further.
As stated elsewhere, you haven't cited credable sources to begin with, so you're not really entitled to demand them from others.

But regardless, I have two sources for you.
In the Hymn to King Helios in 362 Julian the Apostate mentions Dies Natales Sol Invictus for the first time in all of our primary source material (and as you don't prove a negative it's up to you to find one earlier if you want to protest). Africanus' Chronographai, in 221, dates Christ's conception to March 25. So why should I allow that a date established no later than 221 stole from a festival we can't prove existed before 362?
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  #30  
Old 18th December 2009, 06:19 PM
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This may help from Schaff--

History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 311-600. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
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