Finite Sin / Infinite Consequences

Spartan Warrior · #41 27th November 2009, 05:07 PM

But you told me that spiritual was not real?

So now its real, but when I told you the Book of revelation was spiritual you said what I believed was not real?

How can you be sealed if you do not believe spiritual things are not real?

Originally Posted by Webers_Home

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Originally Posted by Webers_Home

The Greek word for anointing at 1John 2:26 is the very same word for unction at 1John 2:20.

Here's the two passages juxtaposed.

†. 1John 2:20 . . But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

†. 1John 2:26-27 . . These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

RE: If you are such a sealed believer prove it.

It can be easily proven it to those, and for those, whom God's Spirit seals.

†. Rom 8:16 . .The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's kin.

However, it cannot be proven either to those, or for those, who are not sealed.

†. John 3:8 . .The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

†. 1Cor 2:11-15 . .The man without The Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are absurd to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are Spiritually discerned.

NOTE: the term "Spiritually discerned" is not talking about symbolism. The word "Spiritually" refers to the Holy Spirit; in particular the supernatural powers of reasoning that the anointing/unction of 1John 2:20 and 2:26 make possible.

Spiritual matters are not of this world and always always hidden concealed from religious and te carnal, you seem very religious not spiritual for you told me that spiritual things are not real.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Webster's defines discernment as: the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure. Synonyms are discrimination, perception, insight, and acumen.

What does webster have to do with scriptural matters?

RE: David was king

Anointing is not just for kings, but also for priests. (Ex 30:30)

I am a priest.

What kind of priest? Who anointed you as a priest? David to was a priest a perfect example of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

†. Rev 1:6 . .To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood and has made us priests to his God and Father

NOTE: the pronoun "us" refers to the author and to those who are "washed from their sins in his own blood" which is a benefit strictly limited to believers, not disbelievers.

Actually the Priesthood of God is not for all believers, it is for the overcomers.

†. John 8:23-24 . .You are from below, I am from above— you are of this world, I am not of this world. I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.

Yes people cannot believe until God calls them, god has not called them they cannot come.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Spartan Warrior · #42 27th November 2009, 05:28 PM

First of all the lake of Fire is not literal but symbolic and spiritual which we just covered in this thread and second of all it is not forever and ever unless you follow Rome or Orthodoxy. I love to talk about the lake of divine Purging and the second death, what an awesome blessing to all of God’s people.

A good place to start with this scenario as you call it would be Acts 15:16 or the Tabernacle of David. May I asked you what is the Tabernacle of David before we go deeper?

Symbolic or literal is of no consequence. I asked where and when the exit door is from scriptures. Apparantly you cannot find it. And please, don't attempt to impinge pagan practices of purging by fire into the lake of fire scenario as there is not intonation of such in the scriptures.

This is the last scripture concerning the lake of fire in the book of revelation:

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire

What is the Lake of fire? Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Notice it does not exclude the lost, the wicked or the heathen.

Here is the escape route for all the sinners. This is verse very spiritually symbolic.

I guess you did not read Acts 15:16 or even begin to understand its true meaning. Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up 17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. KJV

The Lake of Fire is not for destruction (for it is a symbolic and spiritual fire); but purification; be they Christian or sinners; the only ones not hurt by the Lake of Devine Purging are the overcomers for they all ready went thought the fire process.

God’s fire changes us that is why believers got cloven tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost; because we are not perfect and this holy and awesome fire grew and grew and grew until it became a lake of fire. Not like Jesus when baptized in the river Jordon received a dove; for He is perfect and does not need God’s purifying fire.

I must turn and look at to the Book of Revelation for the Lake of Fire is so relevant to God’s awesome fiery work on all flesh please let us have with wide open eyes as the most spiritual book in the whole Bible. The Greek word “see’ is so awesome: (Greek) with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable See: Strong’s NT:3700 I would draw your attention to the fact that the vast majority of the events in the book take place in one of three dimensions: HEAVEN, EARTH, and SEA (lake). These are, of course, symbolical and prophetical terms! They represent states of being, life-styles, levels of consciousness, spheres of existence, and dimensions of life within each of us.

The lowest of these three realms is the sea. (lake) Throughout the book of Revelation a number of things transpire in the sea. A few of them are as follows. “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and a third part of the sea became blood.” “I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.” “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” “Woe to the inhabiters of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you.” “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth…and there was no more sea.”

Throughout the scriptures the sea is a type of the inner storms and turbulent nature of the Adamic man

Take the wheat and the chaff is the same plant; the chaff is the outer (flesh), the wheat is the hidden grain until it becomes mature. You cannot separate the two until the time of harvest; the reason the chaff is being burnt up is because God had a purpose for it and that purpose has ended (the chaff was our flesh; what God is after is the hidden grain of wheat our spirit).

Throughout the scriptures the sea is a type of the inner storms and turbulent nature of the Adamic man. The prophet Isaiah penned these inspired words: “The wicked are like the troubled sea, which cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked” (Isa. 57:20-21).

There are many verses though out the Bible that speak of carnal man being the sea I will be glad to post them; point being God writes us a literal symbol not to be interpreted religiously or carnally.

gort · #43 27th November 2009, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan Warrior

What is the Lake of fire? Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Notice it does not exclude the lost, the wicked or the heathen.

Here is the escape route for all the sinners. This is verse very spiritually symbolic.

I guess you did not read Acts 15:16 or even begin to understand its true meaning. Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up 17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. KJV

The Lake of Fire is not for destruction (for it is a symbolic and spiritual fire); but purification; be they Christian or sinners; the only ones not hurt by the Lake of Devine Purging are the overcomers for they all ready went thought the fire process.

God’s fire changes us that is why believers got cloven tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost; because we are not perfect and this holy and awesome fire grew and grew and grew until it became a lake of fire. Not like Jesus when baptized in the river Jordon received a dove; for He is perfect and does not need God’s purifying fire.

I must turn and look at to the Book of Revelation for the Lake of Fire is so relevant to God’s awesome fiery work on all flesh please let us have with wide open eyes as the most spiritual book in the whole Bible. The Greek word “see’ is so awesome: (Greek) with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable See: Strong’s NT:3700 I would draw your attention to the fact that the vast majority of the events in the book take place in one of three dimensions: HEAVEN, EARTH, and SEA (lake). These are, of course, symbolical and prophetical terms! They represent states of being, life-styles, levels of consciousness, spheres of existence, and dimensions of life within each of us.

The lowest of these three realms is the sea. (lake) Throughout the book of Revelation a number of things transpire in the sea. A few of them are as follows. “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and a third part of the sea became blood.” “I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.” “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” “Woe to the inhabiters of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you.” “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth…and there was no more sea.”

Throughout the scriptures the sea is a type of the inner storms and turbulent nature of the Adamic man

Take the wheat and the chaff is the same plant; the chaff is the outer (flesh), the wheat is the hidden grain until it becomes mature. You cannot separate the two until the time of harvest; the reason the chaff is being burnt up is because God had a purpose for it and that purpose has ended (the chaff was our flesh; what God is after is the hidden grain of wheat our spirit).

Throughout the scriptures the sea is a type of the inner storms and turbulent nature of the Adamic man. The prophet Isaiah penned these inspired words: “The wicked are like the troubled sea, which cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked” (Isa. 57:20-21).

There are many verses though out the Bible that speak of carnal man being the sea I will be glad to post them; point being God writes us a literal symbol not to be interpreted religiously or carnally.

I've asked you enough times to show the exit door. Nobody ever has.

btw, to impinge purification to the lake of fire upon sinners is to negate the blood of Christ which washes away all sin and justifies the sinner. Neither are we saved by works by which we are tried by fire. It is not by one who overcomes the fire, it is by Grace we are saved and not of works. Grace is such a simple doctrine. It cannot be defeated.

Here's a few verses to prove my point. Otherwise, we are done here. You can't convince me of anything other than the blood of Christ which cleanses all sin from me.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus says to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.

Joh 6:54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.

Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins.

Col 1:20 And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.

Heb 9:12 nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus,

Spartan Warrior · #44 27th November 2009, 07:53 PM

[quote]
God's

Originally Posted by gort

I've asked you enough times to show the exit door. Nobody ever has.

Originally Posted by gort

btw, to impinge purification to the lake of fire upon sinners is to negate the blood of Christ which washes away all sin and justifies the sinner. Neither are we saved by works by which we are tried by fire. It is not by one who overcomes the fire, it is by Grace we are saved and not of works. Grace is such a simple doctrine. It cannot be defeated.

If grace was such an a simple doctrine why do you limit God’s grace and mercy to this life?

BTW: I am not impringing anything. Yes Jesus blood washes away all our sins. BUT the Greek word Fire: In the Greek is the word “pur’ which we now get our English word pure; purify, purge and purgatory. We are unclean; without the blood of Jesus which covers our sins our righteousness is as filthy rags

I am not perfect and have not arrived and understand my God is a consuming fire and that is a good thing. Those who love the Lord and long to see His purpose fulfilled in their lives, are willing to accept Him as a refiner’s fire, as a thresher of wheat, as a presser of olives, as a crusher of grapes, and as a scourging Father! We accepted Him as Saviour, Baptizer, Healer, and Blesser; now we are accepting Him as the Lord of the fires! Our Father has made us willing to embrace the means He uses to perfect us. He perfects us in the crucible of adversities. The tribulations He sends us are not punishments for past failures, but divine tools to conform us to His image. Paul’s thorn in the flesh, Job’s loss of all his possessions, family, and health, Joseph’s betrayal by his brethren, his being sold as a slave, and later his being falsely accused and thrown into prison, were all for a divine purpose.

God’s Spiritual Word is a hidden word and to find its secrets you got to dig beyond the letter that killeth. Take the Lake of Fire.

In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

I believe every word that the Bible says about the lake of fire; I don't believe what Rome says about it, nor what the apostate Churches say about it, nor what tradition says about it; but I certainly believe what the Bible says about it.

The teaching concerning the lake of fire does not appear anywhere in Scripture except in the book of Revelation where it is spoken of in the following passages: Rev. 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10; 20:13-15 and 21:8. This last passage definitely states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts.

Revelations: 1 : 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Signify to use signs and symbols; also lets not rule out types; shadows parables; mysteries and all these awesome way God speaks by His Spirit that are used all thought the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Hebrews 12: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Daniel 3:21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Noticed God’s fire only burnt their bondages.
22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

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Isaiah: 48 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap

I am just getting warmed up.

Webers_Home · #45 27th November 2009, 08:13 PM

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RE: 1Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. Notice it does not exclude the lost, the wicked or the heathen.

Here again is yet another example of Universalism's all-too-common error of assuming that the term "every man" and/or "all men" always means the same thing every time regardless of its context.

Within the context of 1Cor 3:10-15, "every man" identifies people involved in a Christian service capacity rather than just nondescript rank and file pew warmers; e.g. missionaries, Sunday school teachers, pastors, deacons, crusade evangelists; et al.

†. 1Cor 3:10-1 . . According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

The "builders" then are Christians rather than the lost or the wicked or the heathen because Christ would never enlist the damned to assist him in building his church. They, in fact, are busy in the opposite direction trying to tear his church down.

†. Mtt 16:18 . . I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Also within the context of the passage, the builders themselves are not made to pass through fire, only their works.

†. 1Cor 3:13-14 . . Each one's work will become clear; for The Day will reveal it, because it will be exposed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

The term "each one" identifies the builders active in a Christian service capacity building on the specified foundation rather than just any old Tom, Dick, and Harry who happens to be reading this post.

†. 1Cor 3:15 . . If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be spared, yet so as through fire.

The word "anyone" identifies builders. If their service is sub standard, they will receive no compensation for their efforts.

The phrase "he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be spared; yet so as by fire" can be paraphrased to read "he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be spared; yet as one escaping through the flames" which refers to people who waken inside a burning home with barely enough time to get out; taking nothing with them but whatever they wore to bed. Their possessions, mementoes, and valuables are all destroyed; but at least the persons themselves are safe, and suffer no harm from the fire.

So it's entirely possible for a Christian worker to utterly fail to produce anything that Christ can commend yet they won't lose their salvation over it because their salvation didn't depend upon their works to begin with.

†. Eph 2:8-9 . . God spared you by His kindness and generosity when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gratuity from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

†. Titus 3:5 . . He spared us, not because of the good things we did, but because of His compassion.

There is a very notable difference in procedure between 1Cor 3:10-15 and Rev 20:11-15. In 1Corinthians, only the Christian worker's works are at risk of fire. In Revelation the dead workers themselves are at risk. In 1Corinthians, the Christian workers are spared; while in Revelation the dead workers are hurled into a reservoir of liquefied flame.

BTW: 1Cor 3:10-15 is one of Rome's allusions to a Purgatory.

Webster's defines allusion as: an implied and/or indirect reference; especially in literature; viz: that which hints and/or suggests the possibility of.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Spartan Warrior · #46 28th November 2009, 03:56 PM

Webers_Home
Sorry about not getting back but my wireless server is in the blink.

Funny

how you just tried to make issues we were assuming, but attually there was no assumtion we quoted God's Word. If anyone is assuming it is you we already debated 1 Corinthians 15: 22-23 where you falsely tried to assume the in Christ was exclusive to the “in Christ”. You even agree with me that time your "assumption" was incorrect and I was correct in showing you the Greek word “en” is translated “in with by” Christ so your argument was nothing but sinking sand and based on your assumption.
It is not a matter of if you go thought the fire, it is a matter of when.

Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

As I mentioned earlier the Greek word for fire is “pur” a derivative of the Latin word “pyra”(pure) and the English word “”pyre” the place of burning corpses all coming from also coming from the same root as “pyr, pur, meaning fire. All our English words having to do with pure are related to the Greek word “pur” which indicate clearly that which is pure has been cleansed by fire. Consider “PURe, PURity, PURification, PURitan, and of course the Catholic PURatory. (I wonder where they got that word?)

Fire in scripture is symbolic of two things judgment and cleansing, But God is not schizophrenic in His nature, God is a balance God and his judgments are just not unjust as you try to portray God’s nature to be. You believe that the one side of his nature is to heal, save, redeem, deliver and restore. On the other hand you believe He is a monster who damns, vengeful, sadistic torture and because God did not get his own way with man (who God caused to fall) God is hell bent to torture His enemies for ever and ever, and once this happens God will be helpless to do anything about it. Of course you blame this on man having a freewill, but when asked to produce proof in God’s Word of this it cannot be found. In fact the Bible teaches us totally to the contrary.

Spartan Warrior · #47 28th November 2009, 06:04 PM

Gort.

Q. What is the tabernacle of David?

Acts 15:16-17 (New International Version)[ 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17 that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'

Amos 9:11 In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places,
restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be, so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear my name, " declares the LORD, who will do these things.

Acts 15:16-17 (Message)James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets:

After this, I'm coming back;
I'll rebuild David's ruined house;
I'll put all the pieces together again;

I'll make it look like new
So outsiders who seek will find,
so they'll have a place to come to,
All the pagan peoples
included in what I'm doing.
"God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

16After this I will come back, and will rebuild the house of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its [very] ruins, and I will set it up again,
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15:16-17 (Wycliffe) 16 After this I shall turn again, and build the tabernacle of David, that fell down; and I shall build again the cast down things of it, and I shall raise it; that other men seek the Lord [that others of men seek the Lord], and all folks on whom my name is called to help; the Lord doing this thing, saith.

There are other names for the Tabernacle of David, Kings and Priest, saviors out of Mt Zion, Meleczedek order, Benjamin.

Point being if the overcomers will become Kings and Priest then who will they be kings and Priest to if billions are lost forever and ever and Jesus is powerless to do a thing about it?

Spartan Warrior · #48 28th November 2009, 06:39 PM

Acts 24:15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

resurrection means to rise

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Notice the just and unjust will be quicken.

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

gort · #49 28th November 2009, 07:12 PM

If grace was such an a simple doctrine why do you limit God’s grace and mercy to this life?

Because we have this life and then the Judgement. Show us where Grace is extended to the next life. Unless perhaps you are mormon.

BTW: I am not impringing anything. Yes Jesus blood washes away all our sins. BUT the Greek word Fire: In the Greek is the word “pur’ which we now get our English word pure; purify, purge and purgatory. We are unclean; without the blood of Jesus which covers our sins our righteousness is as filthy rags

Yes you are and you're impinging pagan beliefs upon christianity. Again.

I really don't care what the English word pure, purify purge and purgatory comes from . The greek word Pur means fire. Literal fire. The greek word Pur has nothing whatsoever to do with purge, purify or whatever you want to make it. Let's not abuse language, yes?

And a quote of yours from another post I simply can't pass up...

The Lake of Fire is not for destruction (for it is a symbolic and spiritual fire); but purification; be they Christian or sinners; the only ones not hurt by the Lake of Devine Purging are the overcomers for they all ready went thought the fire process.

This statement clearly shows you have very little understanding of what Grace is. There will never be a reborn christian in the lake of Fire. You still want to claim a purging and purifying and just don't understand that the blood of Christ is what cleanses and purifies. I gave you enough verses that you might understand this. I find that you are one who needs milk before meat.

What you simply don't get is there is absolutely nothing that will make one righteous before God other than the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. And that is only obtained by faith. To be purified in any form external to Jesus is a work. Works don't save. Works have NO salvific value.

You simply can't have a fire that purifies along with the blood of Christ that cleanses.

I am just getting warmed up.

Actually, you're lukewarm.

Spartan Warrior · #50 28th November 2009, 07:32 PM

Because we have this life and then the Judgement. Show us where Grace is extended to the next life. Unless perhaps you are mormon.

Praise God for his just judgment his mercy endure forever. No I am a Christian Universalist and trust no man made religion. Grace Mercy, same thing…

1 Chronicles 16:34
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

1 Chronicles 16:41
And with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever;

2 Chronicles 5:13
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

2 Chronicles 7:3
And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

2 Chronicles 7:6
And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of musick of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.

2 Chronicles 20:21
And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Ezra 3:11
And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalm 52:8
But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

Psalm 61:7
He shall abide before God for ever: O prepare mercy and truth, which may preserve him.

Psalm 77:8
Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?

Psalm 89:2
For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psalm 106:1
Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 107:1
O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 118:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 118:2
Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 118:3
Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 118:4
Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 118:29
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 136:3
O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 136:4
To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psalm 136:5
To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.