Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV [A.D. 120-202.] A disciple of Polycarp, one of John’s disciples.
And in that He points out, by means of His own advent, the ignorance of a people in a servile condition. But when He terms His disciples “the friends of God,” He plainly declares Himself to be the Word of God, whom Abraham also followed voluntarily and under no compulsion (sine vinculis), because of the noble nature of his faith, and so became “the friend of God.” But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning (“Before Abraham was,” He says, “I am”), but that He in His goodness might bestow eternal life upon Abraham himself, inasmuch as the friendship of God imparts immortality to those who embrace it.
From The Lost Writings Of Irenaeus
The sacred books acknowledge with regard to Christ, that as He is the Son of man, so is the same Being not a [mere] man; and as He is flesh, so is He also spirit, and the Word of God, and God. And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the “Rock was Christ” Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal. And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham. And as He was the servant of God, so is He the Son of God, and Lord of the universe.
Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [A.D. 185-254]
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul,” that he may understand the meaning of the saying, “I and My Father are one.” We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not “reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared,” as though He did not exist before; for we believe Himself when He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Again He says, “I am the truth;” and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared. We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, “who is the brightness of God’s glory, and the express image of His person,” has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself.
Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]
It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God; but if he should not also be God when he is of God, no more should he be man although he should be of man. And thus both doctrines would be endangered in one and the other way, by one being convicted to have lost belief in the other. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the “Son of David,” so as God He is proclaimed David’s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man “under the law,” so as God He is declared to be “Lord of the Sabbath.”
A Treatise Of Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]
“And God,” says he, “was the Word.” Therefore God proceeded from God, in that the Word which proceeded is God, who proceeded forth from God. If Christ is only man, how does He say, “If any man shall keep my word, he shall not see death for ever?” Not to see death for ever! what is this but immortality? But immortality is the associate of divinity, because both the divinity is immortal, and immortality is the fruit of divinity. For every man is mortal; and immortality cannot be from that which is mortal. Therefore from Christ, as a mortal man, immortality cannot arise. “But,” says He, “whosoever keepeth my word, shall not see death for ever;” therefore the word of Christ affords immortality, and by immortality affords divinity. But although it is not possible to maintain that one who is himself mortal can make another immortal, yet this word of Christ not only sets forth, but affords immortality: certainly He is not man only who gives immortality, which if He were only man He could not give; but by giving divinity by immortality, He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, “Before Abraham was, I Am?” For no man can be before Him from whom he himself is; nor can it be that any one should have been prior to him of whom he himself has taken his origin. And yet Christ, although He is born of Abraham, says that He is before Abraham. Either, therefore, He says what is not true, and deceives, if He was not before Abraham, seeing that He was of Abraham; or He does not deceive, if He is also God, and was before Abraham. And if this were not so, it follows that, being of Abraham, He could not be before Abraham. If Christ was only man, how does He say, “And I know them, and my sheep follow me; and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish?” And yet, since every man is bound by the laws of mortality, and therefore is unable to keep himself for ever, much more will he be unable to keep another for ever. But Christ promises to give salvation for ever, which if He does not give, He is a deceiver; if He gives, He is God. But He does not deceive, for He gives what He promises. Therefore He is God who proffers eternal salvation, which man, being unable to keep himself for ever, cannot be able to give to another. If Christ is only man, what is that which He says, “I and the Father are one?” For how can it be that “I and the Father are one,” if He is not both God and the Son? — who may therefore be called one, seeing that He is of Himself, being both His Son, and being born of Him, being declared to have proceeded from Him, by which He is also God;which when the Jews thought to be hateful, and believed to be blasphemous, for that He had shown Himself in these discourses to be God, and therefore rushed at once to stoning, and set to work passionately to hurl stones, He strongly refuted His adversaries by the example and witness of the Scriptures. “If,” said He, “He called them gods to whom the words of God were given, and the Scriptures cannot be broken, ye say of Him whom the Father sanctified, and sent into this world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God.” By which words He did not deny Himself to be God, but rather He confirmed the assertion that He was God.
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV [A.D. 120-202.] A disciple of Polycarp, one of John’s disciples.
And in that He points out, by means of His own advent, the ignorance of a people in a servile condition. But when He terms His disciples “the friends of God,” He plainly declares Himself to be the Word of God, whom Abraham also followed voluntarily and under no compulsion (sine vinculis), because of the noble nature of his faith, and so became “the friend of God.” But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning (“Before Abraham was,” He says, “I am”), but that He in His goodness might bestow eternal life upon Abraham himself, inasmuch as the friendship of God imparts immortality to those who embrace it.
From The Lost Writings Of Irenaeus
The sacred books acknowledge with regard to Christ, that as He is the Son of man, so is the same Being not a [mere] man; and as He is flesh, so is He also spirit, and the Word of God, and God. And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the “Rock was Christ” Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal. And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham. And as He was the servant of God, so is He the Son of God, and Lord of the universe.
Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [A.D. 185-254]
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul,” that he may understand the meaning of the saying, “I and My Father are one.” We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not “reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared,” as though He did not exist before; for we believe Himself when He says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” Again He says, “I am the truth;” and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared. We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, “who is the brightness of God’s glory, and the express image of His person,” has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself.
Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]
It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God; but if he should not also be God when he is of God, no more should he be man although he should be of man. And thus both doctrines would be endangered in one and the other way, by one being convicted to have lost belief in the other. Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the “Son of David,” so as God He is proclaimed David’s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man “under the law,” so as God He is declared to be “Lord of the Sabbath.”
A Treatise Of Novatian Concerning The Trinity [A.D. 210-280]
“And God,” says he, “was the Word.” Therefore God proceeded from God, in that the Word which proceeded is God, who proceeded forth from God. If Christ is only man, how does He say, “If any man shall keep my word, he shall not see death for ever?” Not to see death for ever! what is this but immortality? But immortality is the associate of divinity, because both the divinity is immortal, and immortality is the fruit of divinity. For every man is mortal; and immortality cannot be from that which is mortal. Therefore from Christ, as a mortal man, immortality cannot arise. “But,” says He, “whosoever keepeth my word, shall not see death for ever;” therefore the word of Christ affords immortality, and by immortality affords divinity. But although it is not possible to maintain that one who is himself mortal can make another immortal, yet this word of Christ not only sets forth, but affords immortality: certainly He is not man only who gives immortality, which if He were only man He could not give; but by giving divinity by immortality, He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, “Before Abraham was, I Am?” For no man can be before Him from whom he himself is; nor can it be that any one should have been prior to him of whom he himself has taken his origin. And yet Christ, although He is born of Abraham, says that He is before Abraham. Either, therefore, He says what is not true, and deceives, if He was not before Abraham, seeing that He was of Abraham; or He does not deceive, if He is also God, and was before Abraham. And if this were not so, it follows that, being of Abraham, He could not be before Abraham. If Christ was only man, how does He say, “And I know them, and my sheep follow me; and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish?” And yet, since every man is bound by the laws of mortality, and therefore is unable to keep himself for ever, much more will he be unable to keep another for ever. But Christ promises to give salvation for ever, which if He does not give, He is a deceiver; if He gives, He is God. But He does not deceive, for He gives what He promises. Therefore He is God who proffers eternal salvation, which man, being unable to keep himself for ever, cannot be able to give to another. If Christ is only man, what is that which He says, “I and the Father are one?” For how can it be that “I and the Father are one,” if He is not both God and the Son? — who may therefore be called one, seeing that He is of Himself, being both His Son, and being born of Him, being declared to have proceeded from Him, by which He is also God;which when the Jews thought to be hateful, and believed to be blasphemous, for that He had shown Himself in these discourses to be God, and therefore rushed at once to stoning, and set to work passionately to hurl stones, He strongly refuted His adversaries by the example and witness of the Scriptures. “If,” said He, “He called them gods to whom the words of God were given, and the Scriptures cannot be broken, ye say of Him whom the Father sanctified, and sent into this world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God.” By which words He did not deny Himself to be God, but rather He confirmed the assertion that He was God.
May I know who are these people you are quoting and who translated their works? It seems I cannot find them in my Bible version.
__________________ 1 Pet. 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!"
May I know who are these people you are quoting and who translated their works? It seems I cannot find them in my Bible version.
In another thread you posted something from a man named Harner. Who is he and it seems I cannot find his name in my Bible version? If you wish to have a serious discussion about my post, instead of playing games, please let me know.
In another thread you posted something from a man named Harner. Who is he and it seems I cannot find his name in my Bible version? If you wish to have a serious discussion about my post, instead of playing games, please let me know.
Friend, I thought it was you who quoted Harner.
__________________ 1 Pet. 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!"
Indeed. The phrase "Ego Eimi" simply means "I am." It's the first person sigular form of the most basic phrase in any language. "Ego eimi" is not the name of the Father... and Jesus stating that he had existed since before Abraham isn't a claim to be God. I know that bugs the heck out of me when people make the claim "See... Jesus directly said he was God, by referring to himself as the divine name... see... he said 'I am.'"
... and how many other people throughout the bible, and throughout history have said "I am (doing something)?"
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
Indeed. The phrase "Ego Eimi" simply means "I am." It's the first person sigular form of the most basic phrase in any language. "Ego eimi" is not the name of the Father... and Jesus stating that he had existed since before Abraham isn't a claim to be God. I know that bugs the heck out of me when people make the claim "See... Jesus directly said he was God, by referring to himself as the divine name... see... he said 'I am.'"
... and how many other people throughout the bible, and throughout history have said "I am (doing something)?"
Amen!
__________________ 1 Pet. 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!"
Indeed. The phrase "Ego Eimi" simply means "I am." It's the first person sigular form of the most basic phrase in any language. "Ego eimi" is not the name of the Father... and Jesus stating that he had existed since before Abraham isn't a claim to be God. I know that bugs the heck out of me when people make the claim "See... Jesus directly said he was God, by referring to himself as the divine name... see... he said 'I am.'"
... and how many other people throughout the bible, and throughout history have said "I am (doing something)?"
The Gregorian,
What does the part I highlighted in red have to do with the force of your argument here?
To my understanding, you inserted a red herring into your argument when you began, "... and how many..."
You went from "existed", to "doing something".
?
Last edited by mannysee; 13th December 2009 at 07:03 AM.
What does the part I highlighted in red have to do with the force of your argument here?
Point is, when I run a search for the quote "I am" in the bible, it pops up 1338 times. 108 times in John... including here at John 1:19-28:
19 Now this is the witness of John when the Jews sent forth priests and Levites from Jerusalem to him to ask him: “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed: “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him: “What, then? Are you E‧li′jah?” And he said: “I am not.” “Are you The Prophet?” And he answered: “No!” 22 Therefore they said to him: “Who are you? that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said: “I am a voice of someone crying out in the wilderness, ‘MAKE the way of Jehovah straight,’ just as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 Now those sent forth were from the Pharisees. 25 So they questioned him and said to him: “Why, then, do you baptize if you yourself are not the Christ or E‧li′jah or The Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying: “I baptize in water. In the midst of YOU one is standing whom YOU do not know, 27 the one coming behind me, but the lace of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Beth′a‧ny across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Here, John used the same phrase "Ego eimi" (I am)... yet no one claims that John was claiming to be God... he wasn't even claiming to be the Christ or Elijah. However, people see the same combination of words spoken by Jesus and assume that it's him claiming the divine name for himself? That's just plain silly.
To my understanding, you inserted a red herring into your argument when you began, "... and how many..."
I wouldn't call it a red herring... but a rhetorical question that points out many people used the phrase "I am" (including John using the phrase 4 times back to back). How many times was this same phrase used without people interpreting it to be the person claiming to be God? It turns out, 1337 times.
You went from "existed", to "doing something".
Because not all people staying "I am" stop there. If someone simply says "ego eimi" ... it would mean "I am" or "I exist." However, if one said "ego ouk eimi" it would be "I am not" ... likely "I am not (a certain thing)."
"I am" can simply be a declaration of existance, or it can be modified to state "I am (doing something)" or "I am (a certain person)" or "I am (not a certain person)."
(one thing to note... I looked up the phrase "I am" not "ego eimi." I did a bit of poking around and sometimes just "ego" or just "eimi" is translated into "I am," so "I am" appears 1338 times, but both "ego" and "eimi" are not always there. No, I'm not going to count. Also, for example, John 1:27, where John says he's not worthy to unloose Jesus' sandal, the phrase is technically "ego ouk eimi" literally, "I not am" ...however it's translated to "I am not" due to english word order. However, "ouk" is simply a modifier to "eimi" so "ego eimi" is still the base phrase... however, "eimi" is modified by "ouk.")
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
You will have to forgive me as I am not knowledgeable of the Greek language in the scriptures.
The context of this discussion is, "Before Abraham was, I am."
(And would include the response of the hearers who understood quite clearly what Jesus was implying).
The argument of how many times in the bible the phrase, "I am XXXXXXXX" is used has no bearing on the OP context as Jesus said, "...I am." (full stop).
Once again, I feel strongly that it is an error in the reasoning for your position.
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