I dont think it was a swipe at a jurisdiction. It is a practice that can be found across jurisdictions. But I do think she makes a good point---one should follow one's spiritual father, and one should also hope that a priest would respect that relationship and responsibility that we hold highly.
Kolya,
Your priest is certainly a "real" spiritual father. You don't need to go to a monastic in a monastery to find one.
I dont think it was a swipe at a jurisdiction. It is a practice that can be found across jurisdictions. But I do think she makes a good point---one should follow one's spiritual father, and one should also hope that a priest would respect that relationship and responsibility that we hold highly.
Kolya,
Your priest is certainly a "real" spiritual father. You don't need to go to a monastic in a monastery to find one.
I agree with your point. It all comes back to communication. I wouldn't wait until the last second and put the priest on the spot. If I did, due to some unforseen event, I should respect his jurisdictions tradition, and not make a scandal of it during the Divine Liturgy.
__________________
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
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"No matter how "right" you may be on various points, you must be diplomatic also. The first and important thing is not "rightness" at all, but Christian love and harmony. Most "crazy converts" have been "right" in the criticisms that led to their downfall; but they were lacking in Christian love and charity and so went off the deep end, needlessly alienating people around them and finally finding themselves all alone in their rightness and self-righteousness. Don't you follow them!..."
-Father Seraphim (Rose)
"Personal opinions have no role in ministry of any kind. When we represent the Church, then we ought only say and do what the Church has asked us to do. All else is wasted energy and an opportunity for sin. It is when we lapse into personal opinions, even when we dress them in the language of the Church, that conflict will arise."
- His Grace, Bp. JOSPEH
Hi all my friends, and new members of TAW. I know I don't come here often anymore for personal reasons, but I'm still Othodox, and growing Spiritually slowly but surely by God's Mercy.
I don't wish to start an unneccessary controversy here, but I just want to share something I witnessed at Communion during Divine Liturgy today.
A bit of background first. Those who know me are aware that I belong to the Russian Orthodox Church MP. I had the priveledge of meeting our present Patriarch one week before he became the Patrarch while he was still our Metropolitan.
Back to today. Those who know the Russian Church are aware that they are very strict about how and when you may take the Eucharist. The MP is very strict that the Communicant does a confession no longer than 24 hours before taking Communion, and that the Communicant adheres to a strict fast from midnight before till they take part in Communion.
Before every Communion, our Priest states quite clearly in Russian, English and often in Greek too the conditions under which we may take the Eucharist. Today was no exception. But to our absolute amazement, one young lady chose to challenge our Priest on this. In front of a full church, with people still waiting in line, she proceeded to argue with our Priest for nearly five minutes why she should be allowed to take Communion.
The alter-boy holding the Red "wipe cloth" lives with us, so I know a lttle of the conversation between our Priest and the young woman. A few words were in English, though the major part of the altercation was in Greek. Father is fluent in Greek too. She stated that she needed the Eucharist, and was willing to confess after Divine Liturgy. Father stated the obvious that there was a Confession before DL and he did a second Confession for late comers just before the Communion too. She had no excuse really. But after this incident she ripped off her scarf (Yes she had put on a scarf, though most Greek woman visitors do not) stormed out of chruch in obvious embaresment, and left.
I know the Greek church are not as strict as we MP are over Confession before Communion, and I'm not throwing stones over our differences of belief. But the "Ground Rules" were addressed to the Parish before Communion. Was it necessary to go and "Test" the Priest over this matter in front of the assembly?
Forgive me
Kolya
I belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, but when you are in another Orthodox Church (such as the Russian or what have you), you follow their rules, so to speak. She shouldn't have done what she did for many reasons. I will pray for her, Koyla.
__________________ "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it." 2 Jn 6
"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 Jn 4:19
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I agree with Michael on many levels but I also in other ways, I agree with the Russian practice which is careful concerning communion. The priests want to make sure that the person has purified themselves (through confession and prayer) before approaching the chalice because are they not also responsible for letting people approach unworthily? I can see how some might be scandalized by this but I can understand why it is done. The Russian church here is the same way, where one must have a confession in order to approach the chalice and he says when bringing the Eucharist out that those who have prepared themselves through confession, prayer, and fasting may approach to receive the Body and Blood of Christ. I'm not arguing with anyone but I am just showing the point of view.
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Kolya, my attitude toward communion and confession and priests totally changed last year after an experience I had. I do not wish to state here what happened as I know I will be judged quite harshly. However, it was made very clear to me by the priest that is now my spiritual father that unless he tells me to not be at the chalice that he expects to see my face there every week. He then went on to express anger toward 2 priests who had denied me communion. Thus I think priests need to be very careful about how they behave and what kind of signals they send the faithful. The damage this priest might have caused to this woman's spiritual life and her trust in the Church may have been catastrophic. Priests are there for the salvation of their parishoners, not to act as judge and jury.
I thought about this when reading the OP's message. This is why I am praying for her and really should pray for the priest, too. Thanks for this information, Michael.
__________________ "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it." 2 Jn 6
"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 Jn 4:19
“The grace of God is not in the man who does not love his enemies.” St. Silouan To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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O Lord, humble my heart That I may be ever pleasing in Thy sight. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wow. What's going on with the board? Both my posts didn't show up. ???
__________________ "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it." 2 Jn 6
"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 Jn 4:19
“The grace of God is not in the man who does not love his enemies.” St. Silouan To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"There is a big distinction between merely believing that God exists, seeing Him in nature or in the Scriptures, and knowing the Lord by the Holy Spirit." ~ St. Silouan the Athonite To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
O Lord, humble my heart That I may be ever pleasing in Thy sight. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I hear you, Michael, but basically, I agree with Dorothea. I'm "Greek", and we have our own rules for communing, but when we visit others we play by their rules. If I go visit a Russian Church, in obedience to my Spiritual Father's rule for me on when I should commune, I go to confession the night before, knowing the rules. Even if it does mean I get called Nedelja (one of the priests here is very Russian and can't pronounce Kyriaki (I pronounce it the Greek way) so I swapped for the Slavic form of the name)
Yes, it's not good to be denied Holy Communion, but this woman was doing something very improper. You don't make a scene, in Church, at the Chalice!
I have heard of Russian Priests accommodating this issue before, either taking the person aside for Confession (when there were like, three people in the Communion line at a small Church) and then giving them Holy Communion, or asking them to wait until after the service, Confessing them and then giving them the Eucharist. People turn up late with their children to my parish all the time (we have a monk priest and start at 7:30am) and they come to the side door to wait for the priest to give their children Holy Communion after the service is done.
There are ways to be obedient to one's Spiritual Father and respect the rules of the Church you are visiting. This lady didn't do that.
__________________ O Kyriaki, God's chosen one, And for Christ, wonderful martyr,
With a sword from the earth you were driven, Wedded in glory, in heaven you were
Teach us the Faith to honor, Encourage us, our life to give for her,
By your prayers, help us - Wonderful candle, amidst the candles of Paradise.
Wow. What's going on with the board? Both my posts didn't show up. ???
The board seems to be going a little cooky. When I posted my reply, it was right after Protoevangel's multiple posts and then all the sudden I see all of the rest of the posts. weird
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