| Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints. |
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14th November 2009, 11:10 PM
| | On and on
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From Papias, a Quartodeciman, writing c130.
" (1) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4) Mary Magdalene.
These four are found in the Gospel.
James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord's. James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord's. Mary (2), mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphaeus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome (3) is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands. "
Fragments of Papias
What is he saying? Brothers of Jesus are not, but instead are sons of an aunt? What are the relationships?
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For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Cor. 15:3-4) |
14th November 2009, 11:20 PM
|  | Jesus I trust in You
    
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Reps: 2,638,988,559,583,913 (power: 2,638,988,559,589) | | | They are cousins of our Lord, not His brothers as we understand the word brother. This can be seen when you identify the women at the foot of the cross.
Peace and all good,
Nancy
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Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary use words. -St. Francis of Assisi |
18th November 2009, 11:51 AM
|  | Born-again Liberal Episcopalian
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My Aunt June was my father's sister. IF I had had a biological uncle, his wife, no blood relation to me, would also have been my aunt. My Aunt Gracia was my grandmother's sister. And my Aunt Ida was my other grandmother's best friend -- no relationship by blood or marriage, but a longtime friend of the family.
The Greek words adelphos and adelphé (plurals -oi and -ai respectively) are like that. The most common meaning is "brother" and "sister" -- sibling, other child of one's parents. But they are also common where we would use "first cousin", "uncle" or "aunt", or "close kinsman." And occasionally they are used metaphorically to mean "friend close as a brother/sister."
I am not taking sides in the "Jesus's brothers" argument -- I think there are valid points to be made on both sides. But I AM saying that the argument from word use is a valid one -- the terms are as apt to mean cousin or uncle in English as they are brother. We have an example of that in Scripture, where Jehoaichin/Jeconiah, next-to-last King of Judah, was succeeded by his adelphos Zedekiah. One would read that as "brother" -- except for the fact that it's made clear that Zedekiah is the third son of the late King Josiah, father of Jehoahaz and Jeconiah's father Jehoiakim, and his relationship to Jeconiah in English would be "uncle."
I am not too terribly anxious to 'prove' Mary's perpetual virginity and the idea that Jesus's adelphoi were actually cousins. It's a doctrine I find pointless, though it was an early tradition. But the fact is that Scripture calls James et al. "Jesus's brothers" proves nothing -- the actual word in Greek used might well have meant "close kinsman, cousin" rather than "biological brother."
__________________ "It is written, 'My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you have made it a den of thieves." -Jesus "You've got to be taught before it's too late / Before you are six or seven or eight / To hate all the people your relatives hate / You've got to be carefully taught." - Oscar Hammerstein II |
18th November 2009, 04:09 PM
|  | For my thoughts are not your thoughts
 
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Reps: 1,671,471,262,910,656,256 (power: 1,671,471,262,910,676) | | When one looks at Hegisspus as recorded by church historian Eusebius...There should be NO question as he states this... around the 150's-180's ad
“Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.
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Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
'pray my rosary and I, Mary will protect you'
-St. Faustina
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19th November 2009, 08:44 PM
| | On and on
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Reps: 3,065,881,703,679,681,024 (power: 3,065,881,703,679,699) | | Originally Posted by simonthezealot  When one looks at Hegisspus as recorded by church historian Eusebius...There should be NO question as he states this... around the 150's-180's ad
“Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.
How about that? The end of controversy and division among brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
"James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. "
Hegesippus (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Can I get an amen?????
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For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Cor. 15:3-4) |
19th November 2009, 09:29 PM
|  | Servant
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Reps: 581,941,817,540,470,656 (power: 581,941,817,540,481) | | | he seems to be saying, too many Marys...uncle!
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20th November 2009, 11:11 AM
| | For my thoughts are not your thoughts
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Reps: 1,671,471,262,910,656,256 (power: 1,671,471,262,910,676) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up How about that? The end of controversy and division among brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
" James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. " Hegesippus (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Can I get an amen????? AMEN!!!
Put that false doctrine to bed!
__________________
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
'pray my rosary and I, Mary will protect you'
-St. Faustina
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20th November 2009, 01:59 PM
| | On and on
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Reps: 3,065,881,703,679,681,024 (power: 3,065,881,703,679,699) | | Originally Posted by simonthezealot AMEN!!!
Put that false doctrine to bed!
Would the Church "lose face" to do so? IOW, they'd be admitting they were wrong on one of their teachings.
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For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Cor. 15:3-4) |
20th November 2009, 02:35 PM
|  | Whoever says, ‘You fool’?
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Reps: 308,822,204,731,144,320 (power: 308,822,204,731,149) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up How about that? The end of controversy and division among brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
" James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. " Hegesippus (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Wow. This directly contradicts Protoevangelium of James.
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Christ didn't die for peace in heaven - He died for peace on earth.
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20th November 2009, 02:50 PM
| | For my thoughts are not your thoughts
| | Join Date: 17th April 2006 Location: Minnesota
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Reps: 1,671,471,262,910,656,256 (power: 1,671,471,262,910,676) | | Originally Posted by Yab Yum Wow. This directly contradicts Protoevangelium of James.
PoE is a spurious writing centuries later.
Hegesippus is highly regarded by church historian Eusebius.
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Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
'pray my rosary and I, Mary will protect you'
-St. Faustina
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