Mariology & HagiographyThe forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints.
" (1) Mary the mother of the Lord; (2) Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; (3) Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; (4) Mary Magdalene.
These four are found in the Gospel.
James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt (2) of the Lord's. James also and John were sons of another aunt (3) of the Lord's. Mary (2), mother of James the Less and Joseph, wife of Alphaeus was the sister of Mary the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome (3) is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands. " Fragments of Papias
What is he saying? Brothers of Jesus are not, but instead are sons of an aunt? What are the relationships?
__________________ Mt. 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:9-10
They are cousins of our Lord, not His brothers as we understand the word brother. This can be seen when you identify the women at the foot of the cross.
Peace and all good,
Nancy
__________________ Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary use words. -St. Francis of Assisi
Remember the famous painting of one boy carrying another, smaller boy piggy-back that has come to be the symbol for Boys Town? With the caption, "He aint' heavy, he's my brother."? I think it's quite relevant.
My Aunt June was my father's sister. IF I had had a biological uncle, his wife, no blood relation to me, would also have been my aunt. My Aunt Gracia was my grandmother's sister. And my Aunt Ida was my other grandmother's best friend -- no relationship by blood or marriage, but a longtime friend of the family.
The Greek words adelphos and adelphé (plurals -oi and -ai respectively) are like that. The most common meaning is "brother" and "sister" -- sibling, other child of one's parents. But they are also common where we would use "first cousin", "uncle" or "aunt", or "close kinsman." And occasionally they are used metaphorically to mean "friend close as a brother/sister."
I am not taking sides in the "Jesus's brothers" argument -- I think there are valid points to be made on both sides. But I AM saying that the argument from word use is a valid one -- the terms are as apt to mean cousin or uncle in English as they are brother. We have an example of that in Scripture, where Jehoaichin/Jeconiah, next-to-last King of Judah, was succeeded by his adelphos Zedekiah. One would read that as "brother" -- except for the fact that it's made clear that Zedekiah is the third son of the late King Josiah, father of Jehoahaz and Jeconiah's father Jehoiakim, and his relationship to Jeconiah in English would be "uncle."
I am not too terribly anxious to 'prove' Mary's perpetual virginity and the idea that Jesus's adelphoi were actually cousins. It's a doctrine I find pointless, though it was an early tradition. But the fact is that Scripture calls James et al. "Jesus's brothers" proves nothing -- the actual word in Greek used might well have meant "close kinsman, cousin" rather than "biological brother."
__________________
"It is written, 'My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you have made it a den of thieves." -Jesus
When one looks at Hegisspus as recorded by church historian Eusebius...There should be NO question as he states this... around the 150's-180's ad
“Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.
__________________ ~So take my heart And make it new~
~Make it true,And make it like you~
~Take my hands,I lift them high~
~They're yours not mine to do, Do what you will~
When one looks at Hegisspus as recorded by church historian Eusebius...There should be NO question as he states this... around the 150's-180's ad
“Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.
How about that? The end of controversy and division among brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
"James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. " Hegesippus (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Can I get an amen?????
__________________ Mt. 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:9-10
How about that? The end of controversy and division among brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
"James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. " Hegesippus (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Can I get an amen?????
AMEN!!!
Put that false doctrine to bed!
__________________ ~So take my heart And make it new~
~Make it true,And make it like you~
~Take my hands,I lift them high~
~They're yours not mine to do, Do what you will~
Would the Church "lose face" to do so? IOW, they'd be admitting they were wrong on one of their teachings.
__________________ Mt. 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:9-10
How about that? The end of controversy and division among brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
"James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. " Hegesippus (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
Wow. This directly contradicts Protoevangelium of James.
__________________ I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. Ecc 1:13.
Would there come to be evil in a city, and Yahweh not have done it? Amo 3:6
Wow. This directly contradicts Protoevangelium of James.
PoE is a spurious writing centuries later.
Hegesippus is highly regarded by church historian Eusebius.
__________________ ~So take my heart And make it new~
~Make it true,And make it like you~
~Take my hands,I lift them high~
~They're yours not mine to do, Do what you will~
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