Original manuscripts: Where can I find them?

but you said;

The only thing christ wrote was something in the sand. By your words I would have to throw away everything and just rely on the spirit to teach me. But then you turn around and tell me NOT to throw away the bible, but to throw away everything else, (despite their being fully inspred by the holy ghost).

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I disagree.
Was not Jesus of Nazereth a carpenter by trade, dose that not include writing out plans and perhaps bills and invoices as well?
Was not Jesus Christ also a Rabbi as well? did he not lear to read and write, as the reast of the men of Nazereth? in addition to this, during his rabbinic training, writing was commpnpractice in those days.
Why do you make the leap that I am am saying that you ought to throw away your bible.

Here is what I wrote, and what you quoted of me (typos and all )

"It was writen by the insperation of the Holy Spirit"
Jesus said "The Holy Spirit shall teach you all things"

The things in the Holy Spirit breathed ( i.e. "inspired") are just some of the "all things" the Holy Spirit is, has, and will continue to teach us.

The BoM, on the other hand is alledged to be mans historical account of what vrious men have alledgeldy done, and seen.

The D&C contradict both the Bible and the BoM. so that can be totlally discounted
and, as I said before, neverming the PoGP etc, etc

God does not contradict himslef, if you want to believe the D&C, etc, then you ave to disbelieve the Bible ( but perhaps that is a discussion for another thread - PM me if you are interested in one of us starting a thread for that purpose-bk)

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"…for there is among the Greeks one Logos which is the principle that thinks, and another which is the instrument by means of which thought is expressed;… But God being all Mind, and all Logos, both speaks exactly what He thinks."
-Irenaeus 1:400

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Why gold plates?

According to the BoM, not only did these people keep their records on these plates after leaving Jerusalem, they took their older records out of Jerusalem on these same plates. Is there any record of the ancient Hebrews writing or preserving their records this way?

Why would a prophet write "a letter" to his son or write "a letter" to another group of people on gold plates?

I noticed yesterday that Moroni says, in one of his epistles:

How are they going to read it, if he doesn’t send it? And how is he going to “seal up these records” if he does send them to the Lamanites? Why would he be expecting to get them back? And, again, why write epistles/letters on gold plates?

Just curious as I never asked myself these questions, as I suppose I never really paid that much attention to know to ask, having done most of my "studying" at a young age and within the confines of church directed/assisted study. But I don't know if there is an explanation for this, as far as the church is concerned.

Wow - I just came on this thread to read around and see what the "big issues" were for the Latter Day Saints these days, and found this thread. I am shocked and dismayed at the lack of respect and basic politeness being exhibited by my self-designated "Christians" brothers and sisters toward LDS folk. It's really very rude.

It should be pointed out to them that there are no original manuscripts of any of the books of either the Old Testament or the News Testament. If lack of original manuscripts is a sticking-point in their ability to respect a holy book, it's time for them to get rid of their bibles.

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FWIW, it was a Jewish poster who started this thread, and asked the question.

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Why not point out in your opinion which posts are rude. It would help me understand your perspective.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked.
I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth
is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

Originally Posted by revanneosl

It should be pointed out to them that there are no original manuscripts of any of the books of either the Old Testament or the News Testament. If lack of original manuscripts is a sticking-point in their ability to respect a holy book, it's time for them to get rid of their bibles.

However, there are many manuscripts that date to within a few hundred years of when they were written.

We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today! (taken from McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48; and Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57). Though we do not have any originals, with such a wealth of documentation at our disposal with which to compare, we can delineate quite closely what those originals contained.

Please see:
The Bible's Manuscript Evidence

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Originally Posted by revanneosl

Wow - I just came on this thread to read around and see what the "big issues" were for the Latter Day Saints these days, and found this thread. I am shocked and dismayed at the lack of respect and basic politeness being exhibited by my self-designated "Christians" brothers and sisters toward LDS folk. It's really very rude.

I don't see any rudeness. I do see points of doctrine being debated, though. Could you point out posts that are rude and not doctrinal debate?

It should be pointed out to them that there are no original manuscripts of any of the books of either the Old Testament or the News Testament. If lack of original manuscripts is a sticking-point in their ability to respect a holy book, it's time for them to get rid of their bibles.

But there are manuscripts in the Biblical languages that can be referred back to so we can see that the translations are accurate. There is nothing that can be referred back to to see what was intended for the BoM.

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Not sure why you put the word Christians in parenthesis or refer the non-LDS here as "self-designated" Christians, unless it is meant to be a dig (of the sort that you might be calling "rude" among others here)?

I'm also not sure if my post is included in what you are calling rude, as I am coming in late to the conversation and just thought my question fit the title of this thread the best, without having to start a completely new thread?

So, jic, I would like to make it clear that my questions are sincere. They have come about because of a recent visit from some LDS missionaries, which prompted me to begin another study of the BoM and D&C. I would have asked them my questions, but they didn't seem interested in answering them when they came back; they simply want to know if I prayed about BoM with a sincere heart (etc) and left asking me to do so again, without attempting to answer any of the questions I had thus far from actually re-reading the books.

I have prayed about the BoM before, but I never really studied it the way that I have studied the bible in the last several years, so I became quite engrossed in re-reading it, which resulted in some of these observations and not a few questions.

So while I am willing to reread it and pray about it, I am not just going to put the book in my hands and get on my knees without even opening it and actually reading (and studying) it so that I can just ask God to tell me that "it's true", based solely on a prayer (that I have prayed many, many times before).

So, while I am not expecting to get an answer any different from the one that I have already gotten, based on my studies so far, I do still have some questions. I do still wonder why those things (that are many) that seem to me to be blaring contradictions are not seen that way by members. And I wonder why certain questions that would seem to arise out of our own common sense, don't seem to get asked by members - like writing what is clearly referred to as "epistles" (letters exchanged between fathers/sons or nations) on these precious, and said to be limited, resources? Or maybe they have and I just don't know what the answer or church position is, which is why I am asking.

So because some of the books are not just histories or records of events, but are identified as "epistles" from one person or nation to another, I am wondering whether or not there is any evidence (from either the LDS or non-LDS) that gold or brass plates were ever used for this purpose among the Israelites, as it isn't presented as a "new" practice in the BoM, but one that was taken out of Jerusalem with them.

I don't believe that the lack of original is the issue at all, but perhaps "why" we don't have the originals and "why" we believe (or don't believe) the copies of those originals are reliable.

Obviously if the original manuscripts of the OT and the NT were written on material that was not indestructible or able to be preserved over many thousands of years, then we would only expect to be able to find copies or copies of copies, etc, if anything at all. But the fact remains that those copies were made and those texts continued to be preserved throughout the years in that way. And the fact that there remains not just one but more than one copy of many of the texts (in languages that are still know, even if some words may be obsolete or more obscure) gives us a basis of comparison and a means by which to understand what they say and at least attempt to investigate their accuracy and their reliability. Right?

But when it comes to the BoM, we are to believe the God made sure that these "other records" were made and also preserved, in a more perfect form, in order that they might be brought forth in the last days.... but he didn't preserve the language and only wanted a few men (or maybe just one) who couldn't even read them to ever see them? or ever be able to examine them?

To believe this is to believe that God's requirement for salvation (or exaltation) rests solely on our ability to believe or have faith in the credibility or reliability of one man (and perhaps those who succeeded him) whose known history, when investigated, seems less than credible/reliable and whose "doctrines" don't line up with the gospel message that has already been made known through what is also commonly accepted among Christ's followers/believers as his written word.

If they disagree, they can both be false but they cannot both be true, whether the comparison is made between the BoM and Bible or the Bible and the other LDS scriptures or those other LDS scriptures and the BoM.

Why is it unreasonable to question the fact that the same God who would preserve these records wouldn't also preserve the language in which they were written and wouldn't want anyone, save it be one man or very few, to ever see them?

The LDS says that there are other missing records that are yet to come forth. If someone came forward tomorrow with what they claimed to be those records and the LDS church was not allowed to see them - only their translation - and they did not agree with current LDS doctrine/scripture and this person was proven by some to be of questionable character (etc, etc) do you believe that the LDS church would set aside their differences and embrace these new scriptures as "the truth"?

Of course they wouldn't and they would do all that they could to refute whatever claims this other group was making with regard to being "the only true church" or the only church to have "authority" (as they could certainly claim that the LDS "lost" it's authority through apostasy, etc, just as easily as the LDS church makes that claim against all other followers of and believers in Christ. Right?

It has been awhile... and I need to learn to keep track of how much I am writing before I hit the send button, so that I can try to "keep it brief". Sorry.