Rowan Williams: church future 'chaotic and uncertain'
The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned the future of the Anglican church is "chaotic and uncertain" as dozens more married priests consider defecting to the Roman Catholic church.
In a sermon which was released yesterday, Dr Rowan Williams said: “God knows what the future holds.”
While he made no reference to the decision of the Vatican to make it easier for married Anglican clergy to train for the priesthood it was clear who his remarks were directed at.
He delivered the sermon at All Saints, Margaret Street at a service to mark the 150th anniversary of the London church’s consecration. All Saints is a prominent centre of Catholic Anglican worship in Britain.
The Archbishop, in an attempt to reach out to Anglican priests who were unsure whether to switch, said it was still possible “to lead lives of Catholic holiness even in the communion of the See of Canterbury”.
His inrtervention follows the gathering last month of 500 Anglican clergy, who oppose the consecration of women bishops, to discuss whether to abandon the Church of England for the Roman Catholic church.
I dont think the Anglican community would have this problem if they simply taught TRUE doctrine, especially in the areas of homosexuality, abortion, etc etc. I believe these priests in the Anglican church are simply being convinced in their conscience of the truth.
The Archbishop, in an attempt to reach out to Anglican priests who were unsure whether to switch, said it was still possible “to lead lives of Catholic holiness even in the communion of the See of Canterbury”.
This part I would agree with; I know many such Catholic priests within Anglicanism.
I am an Anglo Catholic, and am very happy to remain with Canterbury. I have no intention of ever defecting to Rome; quite simply it is not Catholic enough for me.
Meanwhile, rather than taking the word of the Daily Telegraph on this one, I have tried to find out where the Archbishop actually says anything about chaos etc. So far without success, unless anyone can find it in this article:
I dont think the Anglican community would have this problem if they simply taught TRUE doctrine, especially in the areas of homosexuality, abortion, etc etc. I believe these priests in the Anglican church are simply being convinced in their conscience of the truth.
If only it were that simple.
Any Anglican suffering such a crisis of conscience is free to embrace Roman Catholicism - there is nothing to stop him or her - I think you would agree on that one?
But this is not what these people are doing. They want to remain Anglican while becoming not quite Roman. Why the Pope should think this is a good idea is completely beyond me.
What does Roman Catholic actually mean, after this has happened? Certainly not the same as it meant beforehand, which is a bizarre step for a very conservative Pope to even consider for one moment, as far as I can see.
Remain Anglican if you want. Become Roman Catholic if you want. But what exactly is it, that is both Anglican and Roman Catholic?
__________________
A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench.
Any Anglican suffering such a crisis of conscience is free to embrace Roman Catholicism - there is nothing to stop him or her - I think you would agree on that one?
But this is not what these people are doing. They want to remain Anglican while becoming not quite Roman. Why the Pope should think this is a good idea is completely beyond me.
What does Roman Catholic actually mean, after this has happened? Certainly not the same as it meant beforehand, which is a bizarre step for a very conservative Pope to even consider for one moment, as far as I can see.
Remain Anglican if you want. Become Roman Catholic if you want. But what exactly is it, that is both Anglican and Roman Catholic?
No-one is trying to be both Anglican and Catholic. Those Anglicans that will take the Pope up on his offer here will be Catholic. End of story. The only difference is that they will retain some of their liturgical practices, none of which are in conflict with Catholicism in any way.
And I really don't see how a corporate conversion of a large number of Anglicans will change what it means to be Roman Catholic. No-one will be required to change any of their beliefs, the Mass people currently attend won't change in the slightest, in fact, I can't think of anything that will change for people who are currently Roman Catholic. In short, I'm really not sure where you are coming from on this.
Blessings,
Steve
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
No-one is trying to be both Anglican and Catholic. Those Anglicans that will take the Pope up on his offer here will be Catholic. End of story. The only difference is that they will retain some of their liturgical practices, none of which are in conflict with Catholicism in any way.
And I really don't see how a corporate conversion of a large number of Anglicans will change what it means to be Roman Catholic. No-one will be required to change any of their beliefs, the Mass people currently attend won't change in the slightest, in fact, I can't think of anything that will change for people who are currently Roman Catholic. In short, I'm really not sure where you are coming from on this.
Blessings, Steve
I have every respect for someone who chooses to become a Roman, for whatever reason. There is nothing to stop them - there has been nothing to stop them for the past 14 years and more. So why did they not embrace Rome before? Why was it not good enough then, but is good enough now? What exactly are they expecting?
I think you are mistaken in thinking that these particular people are going to accept being Roman, with a bit of Anglican liturgy thrown in. If that is the case, why do they not just become Roman, the accepted and standard way, whatever that is?
I think that the blessed B has made a mistake. Good for Anglicanism, because quite frankly we are well rid of these people, but not so good for Rome.
I know that Roman Catholicism in the UK is very short of priests, because at Easter and Christmas my daughter's Roman Catholic school had no priest to conduct mass, and therefore the Easter Mass was not actually a mass, which can't have been easy for the staff, but surely there is another way for Rome on this one? Does it really need to go to the outlet store, and pick up a wholesale batch of Anglican seconds?
__________________
A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench.
Isaiah 42:3
Last edited by Catherineanne; 14th November 2009 at 04:17 AM.
Further digging, and I have found the link we need.
So here is a link to the actual sermon, rather than the Daily Telegraph version, and an excerpt from it. In context, it is saying that our uncertainty as Christians is helped by contemplating the saints who have gone before us, and whose examples we follow, in following Christ. However, don't take my word for it. Enjoy!
So at All Saints' tide we give thanks that God in Christ has made himself credible; credible in the life and death and resurrection of Jesus; credible in the lives of those in whom Jesus has come alive. And we thank God for that extraordinary promise: that the great Saints of the Communion of Christ's body depend on us as we depend on them in growing together. But two more thoughts may be in order very briefly here.
One is indeed something to do with our contemporary anxieties. We need to tell the stories of the Saints to remind ourselves what is possible and within any Christian family. We need to tell the stories of those who have made God credible to us. And within our Anglican family we need to go on telling a few stories about those who have shown us that it is possible to lead lives of Catholic holiness even in the Communion of the See of Canterbury! We need to be reminded of what we have to be grateful for in the lives of those who within our communion and fellowship have lived out God's presence and made him credible here in this fellowship with these people. God knows what the future holds for any of us for any of our ecclesiastical institutions, but we can at least begin with what we can be sure of; that God has graced us with the lives of Saints; that God has been credible in this fellowship with these people. This church with its very particular place in the history of the Church of England is one small but significant facet of that great mystery and that great gift. And at times when the future seems more than usually chaotic and uncertain, it doesn't hurt simply to give thanks.
The second thing is of course that if the great saints of God are not made perfect without us, then in the future there are an awful lot of people on whose faith and holiness we are going to depend. One day we will be the golden age, or the great generation that has now passed: deeply unlikely as that may seem. One day people are going to look back on us and it would be nice to think that they would look back with gratitude and that they would feel that we in our generation had helped to make God credible and helped to show what was possible to them, so that they could gratefully and joyfully help us through the gate of glory by their response, their faith and their thanksgiving. So because time is not of great significance in the kingdom of Heaven, All Saints' day is, it seems a celebration of the future as well as the past. On All Saints' Day we may very properly look forward to the Saints we have not yet met and the Saints who have not yet been born, with whose holiness and salvation and welfare ours is bound up. We can ask what witness we want to leave to them and turn back again to ask ourselves what is possible for us if God in Christ is truly credible in the lives of his holy people.
A great cloud of witnesses; lives and deaths which like the life and death of Etty Hillesum take responsibility for making God credible; lives and deaths belonging in that great chain of causality started off not only by the Cross of Calvary but by the eternal self-giving of God on which the whole world rests; lives and deaths telling us the truth by providing evidence, for that living truth in the whole Church Catholic and in our own Anglican Family we give thanks. And that truth we resolve to pass on with joy and hope to those without whom we shall not be made perfect.
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Look again at the Daily Telegraph version:
Rowan Williams: church future 'chaotic and uncertain'
The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned the future of the Anglican church is "chaotic and uncertain" as dozens more married priests consider defecting to the Roman Catholic church.
This is a distortion of the truth, otherwise known as a lie.
__________________
A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench.
Isaiah 42:3
Last edited by Catherineanne; 14th November 2009 at 04:34 AM.
I have every respect for someone who chooses to become a Roman, for whatever reason. There is nothing to stop them - there has been nothing to stop them for the past 14 years and more. So why did they not embrace Rome before? Why was it not good enough then, but is good enough now? What exactly are they expecting?
This is about facilitating corporate conversion. Peopel, quite reasonably, feel some attachment to their particular parish. They want to come into full communion with the Catholic Church and stay in their parish. This latest move makes that much easier then a whole parish having to individually convert and presumably assimilate into an already existing parish.
Some of these groups have been partitioning for this for many years, and from the point of view of Catholicism, I think it is disappointing that it has taken this long to bring them into the Church.
I think you are mistaken in thinking that these particular people are going to accept being Roman, with a bit of Anglican liturgy thrown in. If that is the case, why do they not just become Roman, the accepted and standard way, whatever that is?
But they have already undertaken to become Catholic. They have agreed to adhere to the Catechism and will have to agree to the particular hierarchical arrangements set out for them. I don't think it is unreasonable that they want to retain something of their cultural and liturgical heritage. Many groups who are in full communin with the Pope do so. Look into the Eastern Rite Catholics. Being a good faithful Catholic does not necassarily entail being a Roman Catholic.
I think that the blessed B has made a mistake. Good for Anglicanism, because quite frankly we are well rid of these people, but not so good for Rome.
I still fail to see how this will be a bad thing for the Catholic Church
I know that Roman Catholicism in the UK is very short of priests, because at Easter and Christmas my daughter's Roman Catholic school had no priest to conduct mass, and therefore the Easter Mass was not actually a mass, which can't have been easy for the staff, but surely there is another way for Rome on this one? Does it really need to go to the outlet store, and pick up a wholesale batch of Anglican seconds?
No doubt there is a shortage of priests in many areas, but if this is really about the Pope trying to boost the numbers of priests, it's really a pretty poor way of going about it. The process for Anglican priestes becoming Catholic priests hasn't actually changed with this Apostolic Constitution. Still judged on a case-by-case basis, with the only real difference being, pressumably, a larger numer of cases to look at.
If the Pope was really trying to ring in some extra priests, surely he would have just basically let any Anglican priest that wanted to, automatically switch to being a Catholic priest.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rowan Williams: church future 'chaotic and uncertain' 
Linear Mode
