The question I am about to ask is asked in all seriousness. It is not intended as a charge of hypocrisy or a claim that even Christians fail to measure up to their own standards. I believe that it is possible that there is a moral and theological answer to the question, and even if one can't find it, one can benefit from the self-examination and the prayer and meditation involved in the search.
So please don't get all defensive and snide, but rather share with my the results of your honest attempt to look at the question.
Neither do I want snide remarks from those who think that this question will "catch" or "expose" their adveraries. Snide remarks, by either side in any debate have a disconcerting habit of focusing threads in a new direction -- no, make that an old direction, one that has been debated endlessly with each side entrenching itself deeper, with no hope of understanding in sight. Please don't do that to this thread.
[End of the appeal -- on to the point of the post]
Many Christians say that they "hate the sin, but love the sinner." But while their actions clearly show the first, the second is not so obvious.
Some of the things the Bible teaches about love include:
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-46
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Luke 6:27-38
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 1 Corinthians 13:1-7 (Emphasis mine)
How do you reconcile these verses with the behavior often seen by Christians? Actions which have sometimes been labelled "tough love," which often come across as hurtful and sometimes even hateful.
How do distinguish between loving but "tough" behavior and hurtful and hateful behavior? Especially when you can't "get into the head" of the one who claims his actions are loving despite their immediate impact?
And what about the second to the Great Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Are these actions the ones we would want to endure if someone is convinced that what we are doing is a sin?
Seems to me that sin happens around selfishness. All the seven deadly sins were of this nature; lust, pride, avarice, gluttony, sloth, wrath and envy. None of these stop one from loving the person; children are particularly prone to all of them, but we would condemn a parent whose love was withheld because of them. Children, yet to learn that unselfishness is the way to happiness, require love to realise that. Love allows you to gently educate, and I do not see that there is a better way for anyone, however criminal, of whatever age, although society has a right to demand restrictions on the liberty of the dangerous.
Love can be 'tough'. God's love certainly seems to be, when one considers the incidence of natural disasters for which no human can be held accountable. But I do not think that God's 'toughness' is an excuse for wealthy humanity to deny charity, or educated humanity to deny knowledge, or safe humanity to deny refuge, or healthy humanity to deny medicine. Life is a struggle, to be sure. It may even be that such a struggle develops spirits pleasing to God.
But, if we are to struggle, let us struggle against necessary things, things no human has an answer for, only ambition to end; and not unnecessary things, to which humanity has the answers, just not the will to bring about their resolution.
Best 2RM.
__________________ Philosophy is questions that may never be answered: Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Anon, quoted in 'Breaking the Spell', by Daniel Dennet.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 7th November 2009 at 09:28 AM.
So please don't get all defensive and snide, but rather share with my the results of your honest attempt to look at the question.
With this prohibition you will disappoint many, I'm sure
Originally Posted by OllieFranz
Many Christians say that they "hate the sin, but love the sinner." But while their actions clearly show the first, the second is not so obvious.
< snipped for brevity >
How do you reconcile these verses with the behavior often seen by Christians? Actions which have sometimes been labelled "tough love," which often come across as hurtful and sometimes even hateful.
How do distinguish between loving but "tough" behavior and hurtful and hateful behavior? Especially when you can't "get into the head" of the one who claims his actions are loving despite their immediate impact?
And what about the second to the Great Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Are these actions the ones we would want to endure if someone is convinced that what we are doing is a sin?
I *think* I see where you're headed with this. Can I ask what sort of behaviors and actions you're concerned about - do you have any specific examples that we might discuss or that might ground/focus the discussion a little better? I confess, the question seems a bit broad and general to know what exactly you're wanting to discuss.
What I think you might be getting at is the distinction between loving someone (bearing with them, not being harsh, not judging, etc.) and discipline?
If that's off, I apologize....
As to the need for Christians to be at once involved in each other's lives and yet consistent in our own, I totally agree. One shouldn't, say, admonish another for something they are involved in in their own life.
As to judging one another - there are two types of judgment, one we are clearly NOT to do and one we clearly ARE to do. We musn't judge another person's heart or intent, for these are things we cannot know. But we must judge each other's actions and behaviors against the metric God's given us for proper behavior - these are things we can see and easily determine whether they are right or wrong - i.e. when a brother/sister sins (a judgment), "we who are spiritual" are admonished to restore such a person, gently, and with care not to be thus tempted ourself:
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. - Gal 6:1
And Jesus mandated we judge one another's behaviors and take the proper steps to correct them too:
"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. - Mt 18:15ff
This process, first going to them in private, then with several others, then to the church extends every grace to the person, offers every reasonable chance to change their behavior....
So, disciplining one another is absolutely something we should do, but it should also be done first - properly, and always in love.
As to gray areas and what is a sin and what isn't a sin - Galatians 5:19f lists them pretty well, as do other passages. But your question posed what seemed to be behavior that might not so easily be called "sin" - particularly if judgment of the outward behavior, while apparently sinful, might not accurately reflect what's going on in the person's heart??? This I think needs more clarification. Otherwise, good thread....thx.
__________________ Psalm 57:11 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth!
Dear OllieFranz. We know that Jesus came to save the sinner, and we know that Jesus loves us. Here Jesus tells us to love the sinner, but never the sin. To givr the other cheek, means NOT to retaliate, if possible reason with love, Or gently walk away. When Jesus tells us about giving " the cloak also," it brings to mind immediately someone who needs a coat, or other things. Sadly we have still many poor people, although we live in a Country where the poor are helped. " Be je therefore perect, even as your Father which is in Heaven, is perfect." We have been given years to get better and better, we have Jesus to help and guide us, and we have God, our Heavenly Father who forgives us, as we are forgiven. It is a wonderful Blessing that God can see our hearts, He knows whether we are trying to become more loving and forgiving, and He knows how sincerely we try. I say this humbly and with love, OllieFranz. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
I *think* I see where you're headed with this. Can I ask what sort of behaviors and actions you're concerned about - do you have any specific examples that we might discuss or that might ground/focus the discussion a little better? I confess, the question seems a bit broad and general to know what exactly you're wanting to discuss.
I deliberately did not get too specific because part of this discussion will (or should) include the question of (if the main question is answered yes) how far can this tough love be reconciled? Is there a point where no matter what the intent, the action is cruel? It would not be fair to the discussion if I started the conversation assuming that a specific action X was OK, or a specific action Y was over the line. Especially when people I respect draw their own lines in other places.
What I think you might be getting at is the distinction between loving someone (bearing with them, not being harsh, not judging, etc.) and discipline?
If that's off, I apologize....
OK that's a very good place to start the discussion
As to the need for Christians to be at once involved in each other's lives and yet consistent in our own, I totally agree. One shouldn't, say, admonish another for something they are involved in in their own life.
As to judging one another - there are two types of judgment, one we are clearly NOT to do and one we clearly ARE to do. We musn't judge another person's heart or intent, for these are things we cannot know. But we must judge each other's actions and behaviors against the metric God's given us for proper behavior - these are things we can see and easily determine whether they are right or wrong - i.e. when a brother/sister sins (a judgment), "we who are spiritual" are admonished to restore such a person, gently, and with care not to be thus tempted ourself:
And Jesus mandated we judge one another's behaviors and take the proper steps to correct them too: This process, first going to them in private, then with several others, then to the church extends every grace to the person, offers every reasonable chance to change their behavior....
So, disciplining one another is absolutely something we should do, but it should also be done first - properly, and always in love.
As to gray areas and what is a sin and what isn't a sin - Galatians 5:19f lists them pretty well, as do other passages. But your question posed what seemed to be behavior that might not so easily be called "sin" - particularly if judgment of the outward behavior, while apparently sinful, might not accurately reflect what's going on in the person's heart??? This I think needs more clarification. Otherwise, good thread....thx.
Dear OllieFranz. We know that Jesus came to save the sinner, and we know that Jesus loves us. Here Jesus tells us to love the sinner, but never the sin. To givr the other cheek, means NOT to retaliate, if possible reason with love, Or gently walk away. When Jesus tells us about giving " the cloak also," it brings to mind immediately someone who needs a coat, or other things. Sadly we have still many poor people, although we live in a Country where the poor are helped. " Be je therefore perect, even as your Father which is in Heaven, is perfect." We have been given years to get better and better, we have Jesus to help and guide us, and we have God, our Heavenly Father who forgives us, as we are forgiven. It is a wonderful Blessing that God can see our hearts, He knows whether we are trying to become more loving and forgiving, and He knows how sincerely we try. I say this humbly and with love, OllieFranz. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
Thank you for your response. I can tell it was heartfelt.
How do you reconcile these verses with the behavior often seen by Christians? Actions which have sometimes been labelled "tough love," which often come across as hurtful and sometimes even hateful.
I don't. They are clearly contrary to one another. The New Testament advocates a caring earnestness toward correcting one's brother; many Christians rather display their fear of themselves and fear of the world in their sorry behavior toward others. I am guilty of this.
Christians are to aspire to the love of Christ; it is clear that we are not automatically granted the power to love perfectly upon conversion.
How do distinguish between loving but "tough" behavior and hurtful and hateful behavior? Especially when you can't "get into the head" of the one who claims his actions are loving despite their immediate impact?
A lot of people are simply not gifted with tact, and we need to remember this. However, one way to tell the difference is to observe their reaction upon realizing that they've hurt or offended the person they are attempting to correct.
For the most part, however, humans are gifted actors and actresses, and we must be content to withhold judgment with respect to their intentions.
And what about the second to the Great Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Are these actions the ones we would want to endure if someone is convinced that what we are doing is a sin?
My dad has offended a lot of people because he has no tact but a lot of good ideas, and a commitment to sharing those ideas in order to help others. He's told me many stories where people are mad at him at first, but come back weeks or even years later and thank him.
Sometimes I wonder if he should have kept his mouth shut anyway. It depends what it's for. If it could in any way by labeled "nit-picking" it's probably best to abstain from advice. The main thing is to empathize -- enter their world, stand in their shoes for a brief moment, and see if your little idea is really so valuable after all.
If you're not sure, then you haven't watched or listened long enough. (People usually, in the name of efficiency, don't look before they leap, and end up making the situation worse than it was before.)
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
First off we have to understand that God is concerned about spiritual matters. By God’s mercy every human has a basic concern for one another, we don’t wish physical harm or poverty or illness on anyone. Thankfully, God has raised up worldly institutions to help with these matters like the salvation army, red cross, united way and all the other charities out there. But like Jesus, we should want the best for our neighbor as ourselves. The best is eternal life with the Lord. Christ came on behalf of his people. To cover their sins. He did this knowing he would be ridiculed, abused and killed for crimes he did not commit. He faithfully endured all this for those he came for. So like we want salvation for ourselves, we should want others to have it just as much. Even our enemies. This is why we bring the gospel to the world and pray that those we interact with might be saved no matter what their response may be. All we are to do is to present the truth, sound the alarm, pray and leave everything else in the hands of the Lord.
I don’t know if we can really distinguish between love, tough love, hurtful or hateful behavior since we can’t see into a person’s heart. But all correction should come from a loving heart because we want the best for a person. We should never threaten or become angry with someone or expect immediate changes. Now, God chastises those He loves (Heb 12:6-7) to correct them and God does not chastise lightly, it is a very tough lesson. This may appear to be hurtful action but a true child of God recognizes that this was the only way he would ever change and praises God for correcting him so that he would walk along the correct path.
We know we must not judge others. But we have to acknowledge that there are many who claim to be Christian and play the role pretty well but they are not. The tares look just like the wheat (Matt 15:8, Luke 13:27, Phil 3:18, Gal 1:8). While their intentions are good they are more than likely following a wrong gospel. This is why it is so important to constantly spend time in the Bible and prayer so we do not fall victim to false teachings. Quite often these are the ones who get emotional and insistent or demanding believing they have to cause someone to immediately wake up and see the error of their ways. Unfortunately, this I believe is most driven by pride than pure love.
When we try to correct someone by bringing God’s word to another sinner, there should be no pride in our attempt. We should hope and pray for change in that persons life but we should have no expectations that the person will change. Some people have pretty big egos and everyone likes to feel important and respected but we should always keep the focus on God and the Bible.
The true measure of our love is in our humility. We recognize we are no more worthy of salvation than that hardened sinner we are talking with. So with God’s help, we endure the abuses while humbly bringing God’s message, always being available to calmly talk about scipruture and praying for that sinner and just leave the rest in God’s hands. This is how we love the sinner.
__________________ In Christ's Service,
Bro Dave
"For by grace are ye saved through faith(Christ's faith- Gal 2:16);and not of yourselves: it is a gift of God." Ephesians 2:8
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