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7th November 2009, 06:48 AM
| | | | Oral tradition in the NT?
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
Is this teaching found in the OT? If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority? Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?
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7th November 2009, 10:17 AM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,876) | | Originally Posted by polishbeast 
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
Is this teaching found in the OT? If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority? Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat? I would doubt they are the ones sitting on those thrones in Reve 20.
I would ask the Jews about this, but they of course do not read the Christian NT/NC ehehe 
Matthew 23:2 saying, "upon the Mose's seat/kaqedraV <2515> are seated/ekaqisan <2523> (5656) the Scribes and the Pharisees
Textus Rec.) Matthew 23:2 legwn epi thV mwsewV kaqedraV ekaqisan oi grammateiV kai oi farisaioi
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they are seated/ekaqisan <2523> (5656) on them. And judgment was given to them and the souls ones having been "beheaded" thru the testimony of Jesus
[Matt 19:28/Luke 22:29?]
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National Israel is cursed forever
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The Scroll, the Serpent, the Law and our Salvation
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Coloss 2:14 Blotting out the against us handwriting to the decrees which was hostile to us,
And has taken out of the midst, nailing it to the stauros
Last edited by LittleLambofJesus; 7th November 2009 at 10:22 AM.
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7th November 2009, 05:07 PM
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Reps: 5,885,458,354,724,726,784 (power: 5,885,458,354,724,763) | | originally posted by polishbeast
Oral tradition in the NT?
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
Is this teaching found in the OT? If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority? Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?
They were seated there illegally
2 Kings 22:
16Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
17Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
18But to the king of Judah which sent you to enquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
19Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD, when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
20Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
Last edited by maid in His image; 7th November 2009 at 05:18 PM.
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7th November 2009, 06:00 PM
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Reps: 5,885,458,354,724,726,784 (power: 5,885,458,354,724,763) | | Originally Posted by polishbeast
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
Is this teaching found in the OT? If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority? Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?
Here's pretty much the same wording in
1 Samuel 8:7
And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you;
for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. |
7th November 2009, 11:00 PM
|  | Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
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Reps: 1,243,719,100,320,955,904 (power: 1,243,719,100,320,976) | | | They were the people in authority, leading over the people of Israel -- hence, "Moses' seat". And yeah, you're not supposed to rebel against the people in authority over Israel. Cf Rom 13.
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"... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms Canons of Dordt, 1.16
"Have I become your enemy by telling the truth?" Paul |
7th November 2009, 11:44 PM
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Reps: 5,885,458,354,724,726,784 (power: 5,885,458,354,724,763) | | Originally Posted by heymikey80 They were the people in authority, leading over the people of Israel -- hence, "Moses' seat". And yeah, you're not supposed to rebel against the people in authority over Israel. Cf Rom 13.
Rom 13:
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
That's not the same scripture reference.
It says do what they say not what they do. God gives scripture to follow, Jesus was reinstating what God had pronounced on them rejecting Him as King.
That's refering to secular policing. It has nothing to do with people, the uniform is the authority.  |
7th November 2009, 11:55 PM
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Reps: 1,243,719,100,320,955,904 (power: 1,243,719,100,320,976) | | | The OP was asking whether Mt 23's intro was an appeal to oral tradition. It's not. It's an appeal to what was generally understood at the time, and to the place of scribes and Pharisees in governing Judea.
The general principle of government is stated in Rom 13.
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"... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms Canons of Dordt, 1.16
"Have I become your enemy by telling the truth?" Paul |
8th November 2009, 01:39 AM
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Reps: 5,885,458,354,724,726,784 (power: 5,885,458,354,724,763) | | | "Is this teaching found in the OT?
If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority?"
It is in the OT so there's no denying here that scripture is the authority.
"Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?"
No, he's not drawing from oral tradition. The scribes and Pharisees were in Moses' seat according to the law of Moses.
But even the law and prophets were superseded by Jesus. God said to listen to Him on the Mt of transfigeration, something the Pharisees and scribes never did.
However they did preach from the scriptures, so Jesus is saying to listen to the scriptures.
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
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8th November 2009, 02:35 AM
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Reps: 294,965,212,214,612,864 (power: 294,965,212,214,623) | | Originally Posted by polishbeast
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Matt. 23:2-3)
Is this teaching found in the OT? If not, how can this be the case if Scripture has the final authority? Or is Jesus drawing from oral tradition in this case? Or is Jesus wrong in saying that the scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat?
The scribe and Pharisees were similar to our courts and magistrates today - they adjudicated on matters of law as initiated by Moses - thus the reference to 'Moses seat'.
You also have to remember that for Israel there was demarcation between secular and religious law.
Out of the adjudications that the Pharisees made became a body of law which might be called the 'common law' or Mishnah - precedents set through previous rulings and adjudications which also became incorporated into the 'law' - and had 'authority'. This is often referred to as the 'oral law'.
You have to remember that there were only a limited number of scrolls available and these were safeguarded by the Pharisees. The scribes made additional copies as time and circumstance permitted but few people could read and write so were reliant on what the scribes and Pharisees said. Scrolls were therefore a very expensive item and few had access to them directly.
They relied on the Temple tax to pay for their services.
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8th November 2009, 10:57 AM
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Reps: 5,885,458,354,724,726,784 (power: 5,885,458,354,724,763) | | | That's really not much different than you see in the christianuty of these forums. There are the tradition worshippers, as where the scribes. Then there's the law worshippers, as were the Pharisees. Then there's the Paul worshippers that place his word above that of Jesus.
Of the whole bible the OT is revered, the epistles are revered, but the gospels are ridiculed as not believable. To that I think Jesus would still refer those in christianity today to. He's only King to a very few. Those who place Him first. People make it more than Him, even tho they still use the words of scripture they don't obey Him. | | |
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