if we are not responsible for original sin why are we guilty? why do we suffer the consequences? and why do we still die even after our sins are atoned for?
Original sin (Romans 5:18a,19a) could have a genetic basis, in that we were genetically in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that we in effect also sinned when Adam sinned because we were genetically part of Adam when he sinned, just as Levi in effect paid tithes to Melchizedek because Levi was genetically in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9-10).
But original sin becomes superfluous with regard to our guiltiness before God in that we have all as individuals in our own bodies committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23, 3:9-12).
why do we still die even after our sins are atoned for?
Even though our sins have been atoned for by the sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2), we still await the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23-25) into sinless, immortal bodies at the resurrection and changing of Christians at the second coming of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53).
Original sin (Romans 5:18a,19a) could have a genetic basis, in that we were genetically in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that we in effect also sinned when Adam sinned because we were genetically part of Adam when he sinned, just as Levi in effect paid tithes to Melchizedek because Levi was genetically in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9-10).
But when we were part of adam, we were just genes and not beings. You can't really say we were actually a part of him, because we didn't exist then, our genes just come from him (assuming for the argument he was real which I don't believe). If 'we' truly were a part of adam we had no consciousness so could not make decisions. Aren't our souls created by god and our genes are just some information that determine the bodies our souls inhabit?
Originally Posted by Bible2
But original sin becomes superfluous with regard to our guiltiness before God in that we have all as individuals in our own bodies committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23, 3:9-12).
So we are not guilty of any sin when we are born and when we are babies?
In the 'Why do Christians worship their God?' thread bsd31 said:
Originally Posted by bsd31
Number one no one is innocent. No matter how young or old they are. We're all steeped in sin, born into rebellion against God. So forget this notion you have about innocence. It doesn't exist.
in a discussion about why yahweh killed babies and children in the old testament.
You can't really say we were actually a part of him
We were actually genetically a part of Adam when he sinned, just as Levi was actually genetically a part of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9-10).
If 'we' truly were a part of adam we had no consciousness so could not make decisions.
A conscious decision by each individual is not required for original sin (Romans 5:18a,19a).
So we are not guilty of any sin when we are born and when we are babies?
Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived as individuals in the womb (Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3). But original sin is not our only guilt because after we are born, during our lives we have all consciously decided to commit our own sins (Romans 3:23, 3:9-12).
if we are not responsible for original sin why are we guilty? why do we suffer the consequences? and why do we still die even after our sins are atoned for?
You aren't guilty. Death entered the world and all of creation was affected. Only through Christ can we have life. Only in Christ's Holy Church, the ark of our salvation, can we all be saved (corporate). This life IS death.
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Why are we guilty of original sin from the moment we're born? Do we exist before we are born, and we choose to be born into this world?
What is the reason for every individual being responsible for the sin of adam and eve?
I would put it the other way around - the story of Adam and Eve is a narrative that tells the truth of all human behaviour.
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One explanation I like is that there are two sorts of free will you can have. In the first kind, which humans had before the Fall, God 'protected' our free will. God 'protected our free will' so that we always saw things and people from His perspective rather than our own. This effectively prevented sin. But you could choose to 'opt out' and reject God's protection. In the second kind, which people had after the Fall, the 'default state' was to see good and evil from our own perspective, and we can be good or evil in every choice. Because we have so many choices and we're not perfectly honest we all see good and evil in a way that allows us to sin, in the second kind of free will.
But why can't we start off with the first kind? I think everyone in the world would have chosen to explore the idea of knowing good and evil for themselves if they had started off in the Garden, because we just didn't know how bad sin is. So God skipped the process of having everyone experience a Fall in order to more effectively save people through Jesus Christ (Rom 11:32 might support this view).
About the tendencies (good or bad traits) that may be passed on from generation to generation....
When I was born my mother sent me to live with a great aunt overseas for a long while. Although I did not spend some of my most formative years with with my mom, there are some qualities (good and bad) that we share to the tee. I know I picked them up genetically because I just wasn't around her to have have learned them from her.
On the other hand, living with my great aunt I picked up some of her good and bad tendencies. I was certainly with her long enough to have learned them from her.
Therefore, traits may be genetic or nurtured. And are more than likely a combination of both.
We are definitely born with genetically inherited tendencies to sin. In addition, we even pick up some cultivated tendencies to sin from the example of the lives of those who rear us.
We were actually genetically a part of Adam when he sinned, just as Levi was actually genetically a part of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9-10).
'we' did not exist when adam was alive. If he is the common ancestor of all human beings, we simply share some common genetic material which determines things about our bodies and certain predispositions of our personalities. We're all separate beings from adam obviously and if christians believe that we are souls created by God before our births, we certainly didn't exist in adam's lifetime and genes aren't the sum of our existance, just some codes which determine things about our bodies which our souls inhabit.
Originally Posted by Bible2
A conscious decision by each individual is not required for original sin (Romans 5:18a,19a).
ah so we are NOT responsible for original sin at all, yet we are held guilty for it.
Originally Posted by Bible2
Because of original sin, we are guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived as individuals in the womb (Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3).
For something which we never did. God creates us and then sends us into a womb, and then we are held responsible for something somebody else did for being born from that womb?
Originally Posted by Bible2
But original sin is not our only guilt because after we are born, during our lives we have all consciously decided to commit our own sins (Romans 3:23, 3:9-12).
So are we guilty when we are babies who are unable to make choices at all?
Originally Posted by heymikey80
Not as far as I can tell from Scripture. But then, doesn't that mean our existence is really at the discretion of another? So its disposition could well be due to another as well.
so our existance is at the discretion of God, our DISPOSITION is due to our parents, but that is a disposition, why should we be held guilty for that?
Children can suffer from disorders because of their parents' genes, or they can be born into a bad home which their parents made, or they can be born into poverty, which is tragic, but it is NOT the responsibility of the child. Would you hold a baby guilty for a crime its father did?
I can accept that we inherit a disposition and we are responsible for the choices we make which might be influenced by that disposition but we cannot be held responsible just for being born.
Originally Posted by Bible2
Even babies are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Psalms 51:5). And as the Creator of all babies, God has the right to decide what to do with them, even before they are born (Romans 9:11-24).
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