Whether you can show Trinity in the OT or not is beside the point - the question was not "Is the God of the bible the same as the God of the Koran", but "Is the God worshipped by Christians the same God as that worshipped by Muslims". To that end its the vision that Christians, Muslims and Jews have of God that is a relevant comparision, not what one thinks one can prove from their respective holy books.
ebia, it was you who wrote:
Since most of the objections to considering them them the same God could also be applied to the Jewish idea of God then those objections clearly need to be rejected.
I provided evidence of the doctrine of the Trinity in the OT to show how the Jewish God is the same as the Christian God. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT, so the Judeo-Christian God is the same God.
It is from the holy books that one gains the doctrine of God. The doctrine of Allah from the Quran is NOT the same as the doctrine of God from the Bible. They are two different theologies of God. There is no way around this conclusion when one reads the Quran as I do -- as well as reading the Bible.
If God is supreme there can, by logic, only be one God.
It is neither magical nor fanciful but has more to do with entrench self-righteous beliefs.
Short answer, yes there are more than one god, even God said this....
Originally Posted by Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before me.
Just because people have made them a god does not mean that their god is the one true God. The Jews as a whole are still worshiping the god of the Old Testament which is breaking the 1st and 2nd Commandment by making a god for themselves and then placing it in the place of honor reserved for the one true God. God himself said that if we reject Jesus then we reject the one true God. Have some Jews accepted Christ yet remain a Jew, yes they have to the glory of God.
Originally Posted by John 5:23-24
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
So then we are left with a problem, there are human beings out there who are in all sincerity trying to worship the one true God, the Creator and Redeemer, yet because they have rejected the One He sent, they reject Him also.
So then what are we to do?
I have heard quite a few (15 or so) Muslim converts to Christianity say that when they realized that God is loving and merciful, patient and forgiving that is when they converted, by the humble love of Christians. The absolute key, is humble love and honesty.
Am I condemning them or saying they are less than us?
Absolutely not, in fact if Christians were even half as devout as most Muslims, the world would be completely different. We need to show them the true face of God in Jesus. Share the truth out of love.
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I think they started out worshiping the same God. But then some guy changed their religion about 1600 years ago. Or rather, changed Christianity.
But if you look at it from the Jewish perspective, some guy named Jesus changed their religion in much the same way.
While I'm pretty sure we all started out worshiping the same God, the ideals changed for a few of us. But the God didn't.
Which altered the way we get to God and Heaven as people.
So the question should be, who's right?
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It has more to do with which is the true revelation from God. We are dealing with truth.
The OP asked a direct question - Yes or No.
The reason which I posit was that we are subject to the culture into which we were born. I happened to born into a Christian culture. I recognize that others are born into cultures which have a different explanation of the Divine.
If you want a discussion about which particular religion is better than others the perhaps you should start a thread on that subject.
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Then it appears from your perspective there are many Gods.
My point is - if God is supreme then we can only be referring to ONE God.
From that point on it is a waste of time and effort trying to prove one God is better than another. All you do is refer to your own particular exegesis and claim everyone else is wrong. Good luck with that.
So then we are left with a problem, there are human beings out there who are in all sincerity trying to worship the one true God, the Creator and Redeemer, yet because they have rejected the One He sent, they reject Him also.
Perhaps it is you that has the problem.
Given there is only one God the rest is largely an historical accident of where one was born. And if this one God is one of love and compassion then it seems incongruent to argue that those who don't worship God in one particular way are somehow labelled with the tag of 'rejection'.
I have heard quite a few (15 or so) Muslim converts to Christianity say that when they realized that God is loving and merciful, patient and forgiving that is when they converted, by the humble love of Christians. The absolute key, is humble love and honesty.
I have also heard quite a number of Christians who 'revert' to Islam claim exactly the same thing. Would you condemn them also?
Am I condemning them or saying they are less than us?
Absolutely not, in fact if Christians were even half as devout as most Muslims, the world would be completely different.
But by your own words you would have them condemned because they do NOT acknowledge the Christian God.
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Then it appears from your perspective there are many Gods.
No, many gods, little "g" just as God used. There are many gods listed in the Bible, throughout the entirety of the bible, so this is not my claim but God's.
Originally Posted by wayseer
My point is - if God is supreme then we can only be referring to ONE God.
Again, there are many gods listed in the Bible, God forbids any other god to be placed before Him. If nobody could create another god to worship, God would not condemn it. This is not my point of view, it is a strict Command of God.
Originally Posted by wayseer
From that point on it is a waste of time and effort trying to prove one God is better than another. All you do is refer to your own particular exegesis and claim everyone else is wrong. Good luck with that.
...so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)
Originally Posted by wayseer
Perhaps it is you that has the problem.
No, it is all Christians who are left with a Commission not a problem.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19)
Originally Posted by wayseer
Given there is only one God the rest is largely an historical accident of where one was born. And if this one God is one of love and compassion then it seems incongruent to argue that those who don't worship God in one particular way are somehow labeled with the tag of 'rejection'.
True, one God, many gods.
Originally Posted by wayseer
I have also heard quite a number of Christians who 'revert' to Islam claim exactly the same thing. Would you condemn them also?
I had not heard that but will give it some research, thank you for letting me know.
Originally Posted by wayseer
But by your own words you would have them condemned because they do NOT acknowledge the Christian God.
Wrong, it is not I who condemn, there is One more righteous than I who sits on the Judgment Seat who the Father has reserved that right to. It is my command to be a doer of the word, to share the glorious great news of the Messiah. People are condemned by being apart from Christ, it should weigh so absolutely heavily on the hearts of all Christians that we are not sleeping since we know how important right now is because the time to produce fruits is now.
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The reason which I posit was that we are subject to the culture into which we were born. I happened to born into a Christian culture. I recognize that others are born into cultures which have a different explanation of the Divine.
Ravi Zacharias is an Indian who was born into an Indian culture and he became a Christian. He wrote:
I came to Him [Jesus Christ] because I dd not know which way to turn. I have remained with Him because there is no other way I wish to turn. . . I came amid the thunderous cries of a culture that has three hundred and thirty million deities. I remain with Him knowing that truth cannot be all inclusive. Truth by definition excludes (Jesus Among Other Gods, Word Publishing, Nashville, p. 6).
A culture does not have to make one deaf to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Truth.
Ravi Zacharias is an Indian who was born into an Indian culture and he became a Christian. He wrote:
A culture does not have to make one deaf to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Truth.
Quite so - I have not suggested otherwise.
And, likewise, one's culture does need make one deaf to the teaching of Islam.
What I have indicated that as from birth you are influenced by your cultural surroundings. Most of us carry those sanctions with us all our lives whether we wish to admit them or not.
I can recall my father lecturing me on the benefits of the White Australian Policy when I was in my youth. That does not mean I now advocate the same.
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