I'm not sure I belong...

Space Cadet · #1 6th November 2009, 02:54 PM

Sorry, I really don't know if this thread belongs here, or whether I belong at all.

I have been in the reformed faith since 1993—an ordained deacon, active in my church in various ministries for many years. I honestly have hit a point in my life where I am questioning everything and don't buy the whole package any more. This goes deeper than just reformed doctrine, it is about matters such as literal interpretation of bible passages, creation, homosexuality.

Now for years I accepted the Westminster Standards and deferred to the teachings and interpretations given. Now, maybe because I have been handed some difficult life circumstances I may be rebelling against God. Or I may just have had a chance to look at things again and say "this doesn't really make sense".

Obviously, these things are difficult to share with those in my family and church family. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Space Cadet · #2 6th November 2009, 04:20 PM

No takers? I would have thought some well-meaning saint would have come by to minister to me. I guess you all are too busy debating high-theological nuance.

mlqurgw · #3 6th November 2009, 06:08 PM

I would be more than glad to do what I can to help you but I don't have a clue where to start. What particular thing are you struggling with the most? Perhaps we can take one thing at a time and deal with each separately as they are of importance to you or bothering you the most. I will not point you to any confession but to the Scriptures.

Space Cadet · #4 6th November 2009, 06:12 PM

I guess I'll start with literal interpretation of events such as the flood, creation etc.

From there I guess it's a slippery slope to the whole infallibility of God's word.

mlqurgw · #5 6th November 2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Space Cadet

I guess I'll start with literal interpretation of events such as the flood, creation etc.

From there I guess it's a slippery slope to the whole infallibility of God's word.

I can only offer a few thoughts as I am no expert on creation and really am not interested in the debate. But that being said I must give you what I do know. First I will try to speak to how we approach the Bible. Now if we are to know anything true about God He must reveal it to us in some manner. That is a given of course. So then how has He revealed what He would have us to know? By His Word. I will only give you one reference though I suspect you already know of many: 2Pet. 1:16-21. Peter is speaking of the fact that we haven't followed cunningly devised fables but that he and others were eyes witnesses to the majesty of Christ the Lord. He speaks of the experience that he and two other Apostles had when they were on the mount of Transfiguration with Christ, Matt. 17:1-8, Mk. 9:2-8, Lk. 28-36. They saw and experienced some wonderful and amazing things even hearing the voice of God from Heaven. But Peter tells us in verse 19 that there is something even more sure and to be believed than what they saw and heard with their eyes and ears. It is the Scriptures. They are to be believed before anything we experience. Now if that is true, and I am trusting my everlasting soul on the fact that it is, there can be no gray area concerning the Scriptures. You either believe all of them or you don't believe any of them. As far as the Scriptures containing the Word of God it simply can't be. Either they are all the Word of God or no part of them are. If the Word of God is only contained in them but they are not all the Word then who decides which parts are and which parts aren't? As far as a literal interpretation of creation I must bow to the Scriptures. I may not completely understand how they all fit or how it might have happened other than what God has told us. Therefore I don't concern my self with all the debate but simply believe what God has said. The whole debate is nothing but a device of Satan to take the focus off of what is truly important and that is the Preaching of Christ and Him crucified. Now can we believe that such things actually happened as the creation or the flood as God has told us it did? Yes we can. That is all we really need. Either God can be trusted to tell us the truth or He can't. If He can't be trusted then we are of all men most miserable. For we have based our whole soul on a lie.

heymikey80 · #6 6th November 2009, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Space Cadet

I guess I'll start with literal interpretation of events such as the flood, creation etc.

From there I guess it's a slippery slope to the whole infallibility of God's word.

I think you have to be really careful to distinguish between what prior and present believers hold to as far as the facts of such events, and what the Scripture actually says. There are literal views of creation for instance that don't demand specifically wooden views of it. I entered college as a cosmologist, and so my view of long-term creation is fairly well separated from a 24-hour-day creationist. It's largely why I hold to a Klinean view of Genesis. And there're other views of the creation text.

My view of Christianity as a religion is heavily informed by backgrounds in philosophy. But to say that's a cop-out is not the case. I do hold to the verbal inerrancy of Scripture. I also listen carefully to people without ad-hominem rejecting them whole-cloth because of their viewpoints on such matters. But the popular views of such texts, I just don't hold to them.

Pressing on, the simple question involves one thing: did a guy 2000 years ago die, and get up out of the tomb a few days later? If He did, that reality must be accounted. If He didn't, then the rest is just hassling over comparative falsity. Accounting that reality the way the Apostles did is very reasonable, and very well-reasoned. It's better than I can do.

And that's really all the inerrancy I can deal with. If the answers from Scripture are better than mine, then there's a serious disconnect were I to talk about my doubts in comparison with the veracity of what these guys said.

Space Cadet · #7 6th November 2009, 09:28 PM

Thank you both for your answers. Yes, I have been well-trained on these matters. I guess I'm just questioning the rationality of it all. It just seems that "the bible says so" is so often the answer.

heymikey80 · #8 6th November 2009, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Space Cadet

Thank you both for your answers. Yes, I have been well-trained on these matters. I guess I'm just questioning the rationality of it all. It just seems that "the bible says so" is so often the answer.

I believe that's the additional depth you're reaching. As you grow, that answer has to expand into just how the Bible says what it says, and how what it says limits our options. It takes more thought and reconsideration what the Bible says.

It's a conventional answer to respond, "the Bible says so", because that's a "Grand Central Station" of common ground among Christians. It's a good crossroads to meet at, where we can deal with initial principles.

What the Bible means specifically by what it says, that's something we all have trouble grappling with. It doesn't mean the Bible is fallible, either. It's more likely, for instance, that I'm fallible than something that's withstood a couple thousand years of human experience with such a concept as infallibility accepted, intact. To me the real point is to be careful with what the Bible does say -- first, so that I'm not fooling myself into reflecting my own ideas mirror-like as God's. But also, to recognize that prior generations haven't dealt with certain discoveries modern ages have dealt with (again, important to realize prior generations have confronted differing accounts of Creation, the Flood, the age of the earth and the universe, etc. -- so there's still something to research). In the minor nuances that confront us today, there's a historical background to check into, how Christians confronted prior nuances. And there's an assessment to be made, about how well this did justice to the Bible's assertions; how well it dealt with the problems of the time; and how well those dealings might extend to the problems of today.

As far as I can tell, few of the issues of today are really brand new. Some of the nuances are interesting and unusual, and sound cool (I've always had a special affection for Hubble and Cepheid variable stars, for instance). But interesting and unusual discoveries, Christianity has had 2000 years of them. I go back and consider how Christianity dealt with them in the past. It's happened a lot -- and the populist view of historical Christians as ignorant bumpkins is known to be silly. So it's worth looking at.

One of the classic writers is Justin Martyr. But there're others.

Didja know Hubble's successor, Alan Sandage, became =gasp= a Christian during his work on estimating an age for the universe? There're a lot of crosscurrents in scientific thought.

Space Cadet · #9 7th November 2009, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by heymikey80

I believe that's the additional depth you're reaching. As you grow, that answer has to expand into just how the Bible says what it says, and how what it says limits our options. It takes more thought and reconsideration what the Bible says.

It's a conventional answer to respond, "the Bible says so", because that's a "Grand Central Station" of common ground among Christians. It's a good crossroads to meet at, where we can deal with initial principles.

What the Bible means specifically by what it says, that's something we all have trouble grappling with. It doesn't mean the Bible is fallible, either. It's more likely, for instance, that I'm fallible than something that's withstood a couple thousand years of human experience with such a concept as infallibility accepted, intact. To me the real point is to be careful with what the Bible does say -- first, so that I'm not fooling myself into reflecting my own ideas mirror-like as God's. But also, to recognize that prior generations haven't dealt with certain discoveries modern ages have dealt with (again, important to realize prior generations have confronted differing accounts of Creation, the Flood, the age of the earth and the universe, etc. -- so there's still something to research). In the minor nuances that confront us today, there's a historical background to check into, how Christians confronted prior nuances. And there's an assessment to be made, about how well this did justice to the Bible's assertions; how well it dealt with the problems of the time; and how well those dealings might extend to the problems of today.

As far as I can tell, few of the issues of today are really brand new. Some of the nuances are interesting and unusual, and sound cool (I've always had a special affection for Hubble and Cepheid variable stars, for instance). But interesting and unusual discoveries, Christianity has had 2000 years of them. I go back and consider how Christianity dealt with them in the past. It's happened a lot -- and the populist view of historical Christians as ignorant bumpkins is known to be silly. So it's worth looking at.

One of the classic writers is Justin Martyr. But there're others.

Didja know Hubble's successor, Alan Sandage, became =gasp= a Christian during his work on estimating an age for the universe? There're a lot of crosscurrents in scientific thought.

Thank you. This post was encouraging and somewhat comforting.

WOMSteve · #10 12th November 2009, 10:02 PM

It sounds as if your questioning is just a matter of faith. Faith, as taught by Paul, is a gift. Now, we must have some matter of faith to begin with, but, if God is truly sovereign, and his call or convicting by the Holy Spirit is irresistable, (as taught by Calvin), then the faith to believe all things even those we will never understand until we meet our Creator is given to us by Him. I believe it is okay and necessary for us who claim to be believers to examine ourselves from time to time. After all we are commanded by Paul to do just that.

I hope and pray you will find peace with this problem you're having. The Word of God is so amazing and we must adhere to its teachings if we're to be obedient. God Bless you and I pray you will get things sorted out very soon.