The official Roman Catholic explanation of the change taking place in the sacrament, called transubstantiation, is that the substances of bread and wine are turned miraculously into the substance of Christ himself, the elements changed retaining only the appearance, taste, etc. (the accidents) of bread and wine. Catholic doctrine holds that the Godhead is indivisible so every particle or drop thus changed is wholly identical in substance with the divinity, body, and blood of the Crucified Savior.
It has been presented that it is all the same, different names but same service. I content that it has so many differences that it is not even close.
When it is offered.
Why it is offered.
How it is offered.
What it is called.
What is used [leaven vs unleaven]
what does it symbolise vs what it really does
In comparing these and many more questions... the differences are too vast to be even thrown into the same basket and called the same thing. The meaning is different. The tranference of focus from then to now changes the meaning. I do not find any Messianic Judaism groups talking about the euchrist like it is the same thing as the Passover Seder.
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
So, how many MJIsm groups have you surveyed on this, in order to arrive at your dogmatic statement(s)?
What questions(s) needed to be answered for you to get your data?
When and where was the survey carried out?
What was your sample number per head of population?
Who verified the data?
or this just your whim, a rumour or guestimate of the situation?
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So, how many MJIsm groups have you surveyed on this, in order to arrive at your dogmatic statement(s)?
What questions(s) needed to be answered for you to get your data?
When and where was the survey carried out?
What was your sample number per head of population?
Who verified the data?
or this just your whim, a rumour or guestimate of the situation?
Let's do a survey here on this forum.... How many MJ icon carrying members here participate in the eurcharist services in their synagogue?
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
That is not what you claimed. Asking on CF is not a proper survey and the question you have asked is grossly mis-leading and bears no relevance to your original assertion.
You made a dogmatic assertion that you cannot substantiate - asking mis-leading questions only compounds the original error!
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Kernow - land of my ancestors To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Y'israel - land of my heart
That is not what you claimed. Asking on CF is not a proper survey and the question you have asked is grossly mis-leading and bears no relevance to your original assertion.
You made a dogmatic assertion that you cannot substantiate - asking mis-leading questions only compounds the original error!
I have to say I think I know her reason for starting this thread. Some non-messianics coming into the Messianic area of CF laying claim that the eurcharist is the same as what is done in a sedar.
So what about those who aren't Messianic coming into our forum and making claims and also putting links that go to their area? I noticed that in the Messianic Hebrew Christian Forum subforum of Messianic Judaism which I don't see how a Catholic and an Angelican can just pop in our forum and start up their own version of what a Messianic Hebrew Christian believes while posting links to the main belief forum they believe in and also sites off of CF that also pertain to their beliefs of Catholism and the other one Angelican. And I don't think I am the only one that notices this. I couldn't go into their part of CF and start making claims and putting links to the MJ forum could I?
BTW, I agree with Visionary
__________________ But in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some unto value and some unto no value. If, then, anyone cleanses himself from these matters, he shall be a vessel unto value, having been set apart, of good use to the Master, having been prepared for every good work. And flee from the lusts of youth, but pursue righteousness, belief, love, peace with those calling on the Master out of a clean heart. But refuse foolish and stupid questions, knowing that they breed quarrels. And a servant of the Master should not quarrel but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient when wronged, in meekness instructing those who are in opposition, lest somehow Elohim gives them repentance unto a thorough knowledge of the truth, and they come to their senses, out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his desire. (2Ti 2:20-26 The Scriptures 1998+)
Last edited by Shamash Of Yeshua; 6th November 2009 at 10:38 PM.
Reason: added content to the op of this thread
The Anglican you spoke of was raised an Orthodox Jew, and if I have interpreted many of his statements correctly, opted to become Anglican because it felt more like Judaism than other sectors of people who believe in Yeshua. He also received permission from the CF powers that be to post here, YEARS ago. That is not "coming in here."
Maybe it's someone else who is "coming in here" making a big reactionary fuss without trying to find out the facts first.
As for the Catholic you referred to--which I assume means me--I was a member of a Messianic congregation for 13 years, and joined this forum during that time period a number of years ago. I also received permission to post here based on a longstanding and proved love for the Jewish people.
Messianic Hebrew Christian area was also established with the approval of the powers that be on CF as an area for Jews and Christians that are more church-friendly than some sectors of MJ-ism generally feel comfortable being.
Tishri1 is familiar with all these particulars. Why don't you PM her and get this all ironed out? You'll feel better.
Have a nice day,
Ivy
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It is no small prudence to remain silent in evil times, to turn inwardly to Me,
and not to be disturbed by human opinions.
Do not let your peace depend on the words of men. --Thomas Kempis
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Last edited by Ivy; 7th November 2009 at 11:14 AM.
BTW, you actually can post links in MHC. It's just not intended to be a church-bashing zone.
People have the main MJ forum to critique churches if they want.
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It is no small prudence to remain silent in evil times, to turn inwardly to Me,
and not to be disturbed by human opinions.
Do not let your peace depend on the words of men. --Thomas Kempis
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But to contribute to the subject at hand--I was going to refrain from contributing to this thread, but since I've been alluded to, I am now obligated to pipe up.
I've attended many, many seders. (Please note spelling.) Let me count...every year from 1988 up through 2007, some years second seders. (And a weight loss program afterwards, haha)
I don't think anyone would dispute that the seder ritual is completely another thing from the ritual of the Eucharist (Please note spelling again. ). No one's in any danger of confusing the two; they're quite different in form.
Probably what people would dispute is whether the Eucharist is what the Catholic church and similar churches say it is..........but that's probably a subject for another forum, isn't it? You probably don't want to get into a discussion of Catholicism on this forum.
However, the congregation I was formerly a part of tackled this in the following way:
a) They had "communion" after each Shabbat service, using challah and reciting kiddush, with an added moment of reflection on Yeshua's sacrifice. Their understanding of this was that it was an act of remembrance only. They did not refer to it as "communion" usually but as the Lord's Table.
b) They had the afikommen close to the end of the seders, and this also was understood to commemorate Yeshua (not be him).
I don't know how other Messianic congregations do it, but the one I attended & the other ones in the same network understood it this way.
Hope that is of interest.
__________________
It is no small prudence to remain silent in evil times, to turn inwardly to Me,
and not to be disturbed by human opinions.
Do not let your peace depend on the words of men. --Thomas Kempis
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I am NOT arguing the sameness, or otherwise, of the Eucharist and Passover Seder - I am defending the rights of people to believe they are the same, if they so want to, and not to be told that it is incompatible with the Messianic Movement when the MM doesn't have a widely accepted Creed or Statement of Faith nor any doctrinal statements by which membership or adherence to the Movement can be measured.
On that basis, and that basis alone, I repeat my objection: Given that there are Messianic Gentiles and Jews who currently belong to or have previously had connections with the Church who find no dichotomy between Communion / the Lord's table / Eucharist and the Passover Seder, it is wrong and mis-leading for Vis to claim that these beliefs do exist anywhere in the Messianic movement. To then narrow it to mean ONLY groups of people is to change the claim entirely - in any case the MJAA by which she apparently neasures these things is only a small part of the Messianic family. To then change it again to refer ONLY to Messianic synagogues is disinegenous at the very least. I'll not go into the lack of data etc as to how she, or someone else, surveyed all the Messianic Movement to enable such claims to be made in the first place.
We need to face up to the fact that if the Messianic Movement is really to bridge the gap between Judaism and Christianity there is always going to be some doctrinal adjustment needing to be made, as well as theological adjustment to be made. It is wishful thinking, and completely nonsensical, to claim otherwise.
Now, if Vis is saying that the Eucharist is not the same, let her argue the point and it can be debated if people so wish, but to trash the views of others on the sole basis that 'nobody in the Messianic movement believes it', and because she doesn't believe the same, is in error and can be seen as excluding people from these fora (note the spelling for the plural of forum).
Not everyone believes as we do - heaven forbid that there should, in the Kingdom, be only clones of any one of us!!!
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Last edited by Heber; 7th November 2009 at 12:19 PM.
Most 'free church' people do NOT see the bread and the wine as being the very body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation or even contransubstantiation!). They would find it an intolerable suggestion; it is a particular 'high church' view of the feast. This is why it is easier for those with a free church background to see more of a link to the Passover Seder, than those from a more Established Church (high church).
For this reason it is quite dangerous to lump all churches together with sweeping statements. A difference needs to be seen between the perception of the word 'Eucharist' and the other names for the feast: Communion, the Lord's table, Breaking of Bread etc etc. All carry slightly different nuances that people NOT used to them need to learn about so they do not cause unwitting offence.
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You'll feel better.
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