Most 'free church' people do NOT see the bread and the wine as being the very body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation or even contransubstantiation!). They would find it an intolerable suggestion; it is a particular 'high church' view of the feast. This is why it is easier for those with a free church background to see more of a link to the Passover Seder, than those from a more Established Church (high church).
Yes, that is what I found where I attended.
I could see where the idea of being forced or brainwashed or whatever to the transubstantiation view would be intolerable--no one likes to be forced to anything by another person, least of all views on spiritual things--but hopefully the fact that other people might hold to it isn't too intolerable.
It really doesn't bother me that other people don't hold the view I do on it, either. That, to me, would be engaging in codependent theatrics.
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I've celebrated The Lord's Table/Eucharist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it more than once in a Messianic congregation. They welcome me, and I welcome them when they visit us.
What's wrong with that?
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I do not find any Messianic Judaism groups talking about the euchrist like it is the same thing as the Passover Seder.
Most Messianics I know don't think the eucharist and the Passover are the same- you are right. On this point they agree 100% with the Church. The Church doesn't think a Passover Seder is the same as The Lord's Supper either. So, you Vis are in agreement with the rest of the Church, and that is a good thing, no?
I'm finding your argument difficult to follow- you'd have to clarify it further if I am getting it wrong (if you think it is profitable to do so). Of course a Passover Seder is for a different purpose! The Passover Seder is for Jews to remember our heritage and how we were saved out of Egypt. We are commanded to keep it a perpetual memory. The Lord's Supper recalls the cross, our redemption from sin, and looks forward to the Second Advent. They recall different events. A Jew who believes in the Messiah can (and should IMHO) keep both. Both events are in salvation history, both are commandments.
As for your other points- I don't see your problem. The confusion seems to me to boil down to be about whether or not you think a Gentile needs to celebrate the Seder once a year like the Jews, to remember the Jewish people's history or something. I see the Seder and the Lord's Supper as two different things: one built upon the other but they remember different events- and one event is far more important in the context of all mankind than the other. Both are to be remembered. One is commanded for the Jews, the other to all followers of Yeshua HaMoshiach, Jew and Gentile alike.
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However, the congregation I was formerly a part of tackled this in the following way:
a) They had "communion" after each Shabbat service, using challah and reciting kiddush, with an added moment of reflection on Yeshua's sacrifice. Their understanding of this was that it was an act of remembrance only. They did not refer to it as "communion" usually but as the Lord's Table.
Interesting note: some in the EO churches think the "Last Supper" was in fact not a Seder but a kiddush ritual. The reason being that to this interpretation the Last Supper occured on the night before Pesach (according to their take on John and Matthew) thus making Yeshua the Passover sacrificial lamb the next day. Of course, if this interpretation is taken, then this whole thread clears up rather quickly. Pesach remains Pesach, and the eucharist is the Christian kiddush.
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"Here lies an atheist; all dressed up and no place to go." Epitaph in Maryland cemetery
Most Messianics I know don't think the eucharist and the Passover are the same- you are right. On this point they agree 100% with the Church. The Church doesn't think a Passover Seder is the same as The Lord's Supper either. So, you Vis are in agreement with the rest of the Church, and that is a good thing, no?
I'm finding your argument difficult to follow- you'd have to clarify it further if I am getting it wrong (if you think it is profitable to do so). Of course a Passover Seder is for a different purpose! The Passover Seder is for Jews to remember our heritage and how we were saved out of Egypt. We are commanded to keep it a perpetual memory. The Lord's Supper recalls the cross, our redemption from sin, and looks forward to the Second Advent. They recall different events. A Jew who believes in the Messiah can (and should IMHO) keep both. Both events are in salvation history, both are commandments.
As for your other points- I don't see your problem. The confusion seems to me to boil down to be about whether or not you think a Gentile needs to celebrate the Seder once a year like the Jews, to remember the Jewish people's history or something. I see the Seder and the Lord's Supper as two different things: one built upon the other but they remember different events- and one event is far more important in the context of all mankind than the other. Both are to be remembered. One is commanded for the Jews, the other to all followers of Yeshua HaMoshiach, Jew and Gentile alike.
Just as the Lord redeemed a people out of Egypt with the Passover Lamb, so did the Lord redem us out of spiritual Egypt with Him being the Passover Lamb, one looks forward to Him and we look back. But the feast remains unchanged by believers in time, date, commenorative, redemptive purposes, and in unleaven bread to represent His sinless body, and wine to represent His sinless blood atonement for our sins.
You start messing with it's apponted time, service, and add anything more than what our Lord ordained, then it starts resembling something that the Lord never instituted.
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
Just as the Lord redeemed a people out of Egypt with the Passover Lamb, so did the Lord redem us out of spiritual Egypt with Him being the Passover Lamb, one looks forward to Him and we look back. But the feast remains unchanged by believers in time, date, commenorative, redemptive purposes, and in unleaven bread to represent His sinless body, and wine to represent His sinless blood atonement for our sins.
I understand and agree with the type here. I'm not sure we have any grounds to debate each other on this point.
You start messing with it's apponted time, service, and add anything more than what our Lord ordained, then it starts resembling something that the Lord never instituted.
I'm sure Heber is better suited to comment on this, but I see this as the perpetual question among the MJ people- the matter of "which law?" and "which halacha?" After all, God's appointed times and rites were usually intended only for certain appointed people. Some for priests, some for women, some for boys, some for Jews etc. Sorting this out is something the MJ groups are trying to do. I consider it a solved problem, so I find the debate rather curious, but I am happy to watch the debate between various minds in the MJ camp and I wish them all the best. I honestly do believe they will end up where I am in the next few generations (and the church is already moving its structure back to properly accomodate this)
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Heber is not sure what point Vis is labouring to make! Perhaps if she could tell us what she believes 1 Cor. 11:17-4 is all about we might get somewhere. All we've had so far is one particular view and the fact that that view doesn't relate to the Passover Seder. A fact some of us would agree with - but there are other views of this feast as yet un-touched and, therefore, not ruled out as something with possible links to the Passover.
It is not as cut and dried as Vis seems to think which is why it needs a sensible debate not just a polarisation of views.
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Interesting note: some in the EO churches think the "Last Supper" was in fact not a Seder but a kiddush ritual. The reason being that to this interpretation the Last Supper occured on the night before Pesach (according to their take on John and Matthew) thus making Yeshua the Passover sacrificial lamb the next day. Of course, if this interpretation is taken, then this whole thread clears up rather quickly. Pesach remains Pesach, and the eucharist is the Christian kiddush.
I can see your point on the Seder timing and issues and the debate on its legits for the last supper. If we go with it being a kiddush ritual....
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:16)
Paul calls this cup, the "cup of blessing" which would be in Hebrew kos shel berachah... would it not? If so then we are talking about the blessing after the meal? For disciples of the Yeshua, there appears to be a connection between the cup of wine at Prayer After the Meal tradition and the Last Seder. In the Gospel of Mark we read:
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. (Mark 14:23-24, also Matthew 26:27-28)
I still lean on it being a Passover Seder according to Essene calendar, but can acknowledge the validity of the after meal prayer of thanksgiving... which would be done at every meal time.
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
Most 'free church' people do NOT see the bread and the wine as being the very body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation or even contransubstantiation!). T.
I would also agree with you Heber.
I also looked again at 1 Corinthians 11:17-34.
It seems to me that they met often with communial meal but it has taken on a new meaning.
25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
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