Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
It makes no logical sense that God would create something without form and void (tohwu). Isa 45:18 confirms this. It makes no linguistic sense because the tense of the verb "hayah" in Gen. 1:2 should be "became" not "was". That would straighten all of this out - but people choose to remain ignorant of it, that is what Peter was saying.
the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished
=
Gen. 1:2, the earth was covered with water (whether in liquid or ice form we are not told). In verses 6-10 the waters had to be divided so the land could appear. This earth with land being overflowed with water is not "towhu" in any way. It became that way at the overthrow. Noah's flood, on the other hand, was only 22 feet high, much land was not even covered, even many trees locally survived it. Bad flood? Yes. Global cataclysm that Peter described? No.
OK, thanks.
This is incidental: Where do you get the "22 feet" number on Noah's Flood?
Gen. 7:20 - Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail
OK, 22 ft higher than mountains.
This is good. Since we know how much water we have now, how big is the earth now, so we can calculate approximately how high was the mountain at that time.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water
= Gen. 1:1, the 1st age (created billions of years ago, dinosaurs etc)
Say what? Dinosaurs, etc?? How did you get that in the text?
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished
= the "katabole" (overthrow - redered "foundation" - of the world) between 1:1 and 1:2
Gosh, sure sounds a lot like the word that we KNOW perished, in the flood. Why do mental gymnastics, by trying to force us to imagine something only there in your head? It sure ain't in the text.
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
= Gen. 1:2 - today - the 2nd age, perhaps 15,000 years old
Aside from your guessing at the time involved, you are close. But it is talking about the heavens that NOW are. You can't take that all the way back to creation week. There are too many differences twixt then and now, for then to be part of now.
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
= end of the Millennium, start of the 3rd age
In other words these heavens are temporary. By the way, can you prove that this refers to the end of the 1000 years?
The earth became "tohwu" in Gen. 1:2, it was not created that way. (Isa. 45:18)[/quote]
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
I see nothing in this verse remotely suggesting some Pre Adamic race. Of course He made it to be inhabited.
__________________ The present is...NOT...the key to the past. That is where science messed up. The future is the key to the past.
Say what? Dinosaurs, etc?? How did you get that in the text?
Not that text, but elsewhere (Job). The earth is billions of years old, and Peter knew that it was much older than this age of flesh man.
Gosh, sure sounds a lot like the word that we KNOW perished, in the flood. Why do mental gymnastics, by trying to force us to imagine something only there in your head? It sure ain't in the text.
The world did not perish in Noah's flood as I described above. Not even close. Study "katabole".
In other words these heavens are temporary. By the way, can you prove that this refers to the end of the 1000 years?
Rev. 20-21 And when the thousand years are expired...I saw a new heaven and a new earth
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
I see nothing in this verse remotely suggesting some Pre Adamic race. Of course He made it to be inhabited.
You're not following along.
In English, Isa. 45:18 and Gen. 1:2 completely contradict each other. In Hebrew, they do not. It BECAME tohwu and there is nothing to dispute that.
__________________ John 14:6
Pray for the truly perscuted brethren in Christ throughout the world.
Not that text, but elsewhere (Job). The earth is billions of years old, and Peter knew that it was much older than this age of flesh man.
No, sorry, you seem to be trying to weld the bible into your pet doctrine.
The world did not perish in Noah's flood as I described above. Not even close. Study "katabole".
The people perished. Have you some reason to claim it meant the planet perished? That is actually ridiculous. The word katabole when I looked it up seems to men laying down, conceive, or foundation.
Rev. 20-21 And when the thousand years are expired...I saw a new heaven and a new earth
Yes, I am aware of that. It does sound like it nails it. However, I do notice that many things in the 1000 years also sound like they are a lot like they will be in the new heavens..lions eating grass, long lifespans..hyper crop growth, etc. And they certainly sound similar to pre flood times.
You're not following along.
In English, Isa. 45:18 and Gen. 1:2 completely contradict each other. In Hebrew, they do not. It BECAME tohwu and there is nothing to dispute that.
45:18 - For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. No contradiction I can see at all. He created the earth, yes, and it was in stages. First, it was without form, later, He gave it plenty of form.
__________________ The present is...NOT...the key to the past. That is where science messed up. The future is the key to the past.
No, sorry, you seem to be trying to weld the bible into your pet doctrine.
The people perished. Have you some reason to claim it meant the planet perished? That is actually ridiculous. The word katabole when I looked it up seems to men laying down, conceive, or foundation.
"throwing down", IE overthrow of the world that was, see "foundation of the world".
45:18 - For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 1:2 - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. No contradiction I can see at all. He created the earth, yes, and it was in stages. First, it was without form, later, He gave it plenty of form.
Again,
Isa. 45:18 - He created it NOT tohwu
Gen. 1:2 - He created it tohwu
No contradiction there???
Who is the one "welding" the Bible to fit a doctrine?
__________________ John 14:6
Pray for the truly perscuted brethren in Christ throughout the world.
"throwing down", IE overthrow of the world that was, see "foundation of the world".
Again,
Isa. 45:18 - He created it NOT tohwu
Gen. 1:2 - He created it tohwu
No contradiction there???
Who is the one "welding" the Bible to fit a doctrine?
That is part of the reason that I think Gen 1:2 is not referring to the earth.
Scientifically, if the earth is a one-piece solid planet, and there was no life on the earth, then tohwu is not the right word to describe the condition of the earth, under any circumstances.
"throwing down", IE overthrow of the world that was, see "foundation of the world".
Point? Are you applying that to something other than the flood?
Again,
Isa. 45:18 - He created it NOT tohwu
Gen. 1:2 - He created it tohwu
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
No contradiction there???
Who is the one "welding" the Bible to fit a doctrine?
Setting in order the scriptures is a far cry from doing brain surgery on them, welding them, jack hammering them, and otherwise torturing them to fit some preconceived notion. My best advice, lose the notion, enjoy the word for what it is.
__________________ The present is...NOT...the key to the past. That is where science messed up. The future is the key to the past.
That is part of the reason that I think Gen 1:2 is not referring to the earth.
Scientifically, if the earth is a one-piece solid planet, and there was no life on the earth, then tohwu is not the right word to describe the condition of the earth, under any circumstances.
I doubt it is a one piece planet. There are foundations, remember. Also, when the earth was cursed, it was clear it was man's surface area. The ground. But, be that as it may, why is tohwu not a good word for creation??
__________________ The present is...NOT...the key to the past. That is where science messed up. The future is the key to the past.
You're not following along.
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