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5th November 2009, 11:24 AM
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I made a casual slip in a post the other day which made me realize that I’m still struggling with decision theology thoughts. I was very impressed with WildStrawberry’s tooth decay model, where keeping healthy teeth is not so much a product of choice as of good genetics, but rapid tooth decay is a product of bad choices. Yet I obviously still have some confusion as exemplified by my casual slip about salvation being a choice as well as damnation.
So, would it be true to say that, in Lutheran terms, having lack of repentance is a choice, but repentance is not a choice because repentance only comes through the Holy Spirit? If so then I am still confused because I still have the impression that at least some element of choice is involved in repentance. Is it correct to say that deciding to repent is not in fact a choice?
Note: I would have called this thread the opposite of decision theology, but I'm not aware of a succinct label for the Lutheran counter-point to decision theology.
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5th November 2009, 12:06 PM
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Reps: 22,907,707,697,251,504 (power: 22,907,707,697,265) | | | An important point is what is repentance? It is contrition, followed by faith. Other groups often add some sort of satisfaction to repentance.
It seems to me that those in decision theology ultimately make the person the source of the faith. He must chose to believe. As contrasted to the way we see it as God working through means such as the Bible to be the sources of faith as well as the objects of faith.
Hope I said that correctly, it's a difficult area for me to rightly speak probably because of my Baptist time.
Marv
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Eze 36:25-27 ESV
(25) I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
(26) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(27) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Heb 10:22 ESV let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
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5th November 2009, 12:08 PM
|  | Remonstrant Samurai Lutheran
 
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Reps: 4,399,032,406,606,942 (power: 4,399,032,406,609) | | | This is always a tough question, because one thing that is certain is that we are not puppets of God. If we were, then avoiding sin would be easy and the world would be a much better place.
It is fair to say that we don't choose to repent in the same way that we choose, say, our political affiliation. That is a decision based on reason and personal priorities. Reason and logic can only bring you so far in the realms of faith: believe me - I know. At some point it becomes necessary to let go of reason and logic and move ahead without established facts.
As human beings, we are unable to do that. Rational behavior and our own sinful desires make it impossible to see God or believe in anything beyond ourselves. God, therefore, intervienes and makes it possible for us to accept a reality beyond our senses: one where a loving Creator produced a world for us, and where He continues to care for us despite our rebellion against Him.
Put simply: I did not choose to follow God ... I accepted the gift that He has given to me. I did not reason out and decide by the strength of my own will to follow God. God enabled and empowered me to believe in all that He has done for me - all is a gift, so let no person boast or take pride in the strength of his or her own faith. Instead we are to stand humbly in the presence of God and in fellowship with one another.
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5th November 2009, 01:57 PM
|  | alexnbethdad
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Reps: 113,890,982,709,586,032 (power: 113,890,982,709,606) | | | When one repents, they are being acted upon by the Holy Spirit.
When one is unrepentant, they are acting against the Holy Spirit.
Repentance originates with God.
Unrepentance originates with us.
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5th November 2009, 02:43 PM
|  | Martyría, Diakonía, Koinōnía
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Reps: 727,432,821,147,579,648 (power: 727,432,821,147,586) | | Originally Posted by Archaenfel  It is fair to say that we don't choose to repent in the same way that we choose, say, our political affiliation. That is a decision based on reason and personal priorities. Reason and logic can only bring you so far in the realms of faith: believe me - I know. At some point it becomes necessary to let go of reason and logic and move ahead without established facts.
As human beings, we are unable to do that. Rational behavior and our own sinful desires make it impossible to see God or believe in anything beyond ourselves. God, therefore, intervenes and makes it possible for us to accept a reality beyond our senses: one where a loving Creator produced a world for us, and where He continues to care for us despite our rebellion against Him.
I'm not sure about that, Archie. (Can I call you Archie?  )
It's not just that God gives us the ability to believe in anything beyond ourselves. Many, many people who believe in non-Christian religions believe in something beyond themselves, beyond their senses. It's got to be more specific than that.
God gives us the ability to believe in him personally - the Triune God - that he exists and that he has been faithfully revealed to us. He also gives us faith that believes Christ's atoning sacrifice and God's grace are sufficient to save us in spite of our sinfulness and apart from anything we could ever do.
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Biblical, historic, traditional, creedal, confessional, liturgical, monergistic, sacramental, evangelical, catholic, orthodox Christianity.
(All scripture quotes in my posts are from the Holy Bible English Standard Version (ESV) unless otherwise indicated.)
Daily return to the waters of Holy Baptism that the old man might be drowned and die. Daily, for he is a good swimmer.
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5th November 2009, 05:22 PM
|  | But one thing is needful . . .
 
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Reps: 45,054,887,837,835,648 (power: 45,054,887,837,838) | | May I ask a question? I've never been Reformed, or Lutheran, so I'm trying to understand this (I was raised Baptist - "decision theology", and now I'm Orthodox, and I guess you could say that Orthodoxy teaches "synergy" - but then again, I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about  ).
What I think you're saying is that only the Holy Spirit can turn our hearts to God (I totally agree with that!), but that no response towards God is possible on our part? That our only possible response would be if we turned away from God - that would be our working?
If that's true - then wouldn't that be saying in essence that God only saves those He chooses, and He chooses not to save others? Because if He chooses to draw some to Him and not allow them to turn away, then He must be choosing to allow others to turn away. Which seems like predestination, or limited atonement, or one of those TULIP things. 
[It seems to me that either God allows free will on both sides (the freedom/ability to respond or not respond) or He allows it to neither side - which I guess is called double predestination. But that's my belief, which apparently is not the Lutheran belief.]
Would someone care to set me straight on what you believe? Thanks!
Mary
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5th November 2009, 05:23 PM
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Reps: 168,356,609,339,956,864 (power: 168,356,609,339,963) | | Originally Posted by BigNorsk It is contrition, followed by faith.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but this part perplexes me. I've heard this precise statement from Lutherans before and it seems to me to contradict Sola Fide. Faith always comes first, even before contrition.
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Last edited by LutheranMafia; 5th November 2009 at 05:46 PM.
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5th November 2009, 05:37 PM
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Reps: 168,356,609,339,956,864 (power: 168,356,609,339,963) | | Originally Posted by Archaenfel This is always a tough question, because one thing that is certain is that we are not puppets of God.
This has immediately gone to the predestination vs free-will issue.
I see that issue as being like waves vs particles, an apparent paradox that is not in fact contradictory. In the case of free-will vs predestination I think that they are not contradictory because predestination is exclusively God's point of view, not our's. From our end of the spectrum we have free-will and little to no ability to forsee what is preordained, while from God's point of view it is all preordained.
This point of view is part of what confuses me about decision theology. It strikes me that it is a decision from our point of view, but not from God's. That is distinct from saying that to repent is not a choice, but to refuse to repent is a choice; in that expression the cut between predestination and free-will is along the lines of repentance vs unrepentance, as opposed to being God's point of view vs our own point of view.
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5th November 2009, 05:41 PM
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Reps: 168,356,609,339,956,864 (power: 168,356,609,339,963) | | Originally Posted by MaryofBethany If that's true - then wouldn't that be saying in essence that God only saves those He chooses, and He chooses not to save others? Because if He chooses to draw some to Him and not allow them to turn away, then He must be choosing to allow others to turn away. Which seems like predestination, or limited atonement, or one of those TULIP things.
That is an excellent expression of my confusion too.
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5th November 2009, 05:43 PM
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Reps: 168,356,609,339,956,864 (power: 168,356,609,339,963) | | Originally Posted by DaRev When one repents, they are being acted upon by the Holy Spirit.
When one is unrepentant, they are acting against the Holy Spirit.
So is it false to say that the Holy Spirit tries to act on the unrepentant, but they choose to refuse? Where does their choice come in? (An echo of MaryOfBethany's question.) Originally Posted by DaRev Repentance originates with God.
Unrepentance originates with us.
The fact that repentance originates with God does not exclude our receptivity from being a product of choice.
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