Think of it in terms of your left arm. You don't have to choose to receive it because you already possess it. It's already yours. The only real choice that you can make is to cut it off by your own actions. Your actions didn't put it there, that was done for you. But your own actions can remove it if you so choose.
Christ died for all sin of all time and of all people. Our faith is ours by His doing. Those who are not saved are those who by their own doing choose to reject it. They are damned by their own actions.
Now, some may say "We can choose not to reject." But even that is an act of repentance that the Holy Spirit works in us, so it isn't an active choice that we make at all. It's made for us by God.
Thank you for that, DaRev. I think, as Archaenfel said, that once we get through it all - the Lutheran and Orthodox beliefs are very much alike. Perhaps exactly alike, though I'm not qualified to say. I really appreciate your post.
Originally Posted by Archaenfel
Orthodox talk about having been saved / are being saved / will be saved. Absolutely everything they say uses a lot of words. They're like Ents: anything worth saying is worth taking a very long time.
QFT!
Mary
__________________ Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing Life!
Contrition does not form a beginning of, or half of, conversion, nor does it produce a better spiritual condition in the sinner, since of itself it can only lead to despair (2 Co 7:10); but it is the indispensable preparation for conversion. The converted person may be sure of his conversion. (2 Co 13:5; 1 Jn 3:14)
It seems to me like this is one of the mysteries of God. Contrition being the "indispensable preparation" for conversion, yet not having a cause and effect relationship or a sequential occurance relationship to the granting of faith.
It is mysterious indeed, I can't make heads or tails of this?
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More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.
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LM, Here's the article on Contrition itself. This seems to indicate some kind of sequential relationship. Now I guess I'm the one confused.
Contrition. Movement of heart prior to conversion, namely, “that the heart perceive sin, [and] dread God's wrath” (FCSD II 70). Before the time of Luther, teachings pertaining to contrition and repentance were admittedly confused (Ap XII 4–7). In rabbinic Judaism, repentance (Heb. teshubah, “return”) was often man's self-redemption from the thralldom of sin. The RCCh. teaches that “perfect contrition justifies the sinner even without the Sacrament of Penance” (E. J. Hanna, “Attrition,” The Catholic Cyclopedia, II [New York, 1907], 66; see also Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, sess. XIV, Sacrament of Penance, ch. 4). By “perfect contrition” RCs mean detestation of sin that arises from love of God. That which arises from any other motive (e.g., fear of losing salvation) is considered attrition.* In rationalism contrition is the first step toward self-improvement, which it regards the essence of salvation. In many Prot. circles the view prevails either that contrition procures forgiveness of sins or, in milder form, that contrition has an influence on God, moving Him to forgive.
Two truths are taught in Scripture regarding contrition: 1. The nonexistence of conversion where contrition has not preceded (FCSD II 70). Contrition is the indispensable preparation for conversion. Fear of God's wrath and damnation always precedes faith (Jl 2:12; Mk 1:15; Lk 15:18; 18:13; 24:47; Acts 2:37; 16:29; FCSD II 54, 70). One who does not experience such anguish of conscience (terrores conscientiae, result of awareness of God's law), despises God's grace (Lk 5:31–39; Ap XII 51; XIII 21; AC XII). Luther emphasized that true contrition is not active (activa contritio), i. e., fabricated remorse, but passive (passiva contritio), i. e., true sorrow of the heart, suffering, and pain of death (SA III iii 2). But from this it is not to be concluded that contrition is a cause of forgiveness (Ro 3:28). 2. Contrition in no way brings about, implements, or occasions justification through faith (WA 6, 545; 52, 271; 48, 335; FCSD III 30–31). Good works do not justify (Eph 2:8); the contrition of the unconverted person is not even a good work, since it is joined with hatred toward God (God justifies the ungodly, Ro 4:5). As soon as one longs for divine grace, faith exists in the heart (Is 42:3; Mk 9:24; cf.FCSD II 14). Faith is engendered by the Holy Spirit through the Word (see Conversion, II 2–3). EL
LM, Here's the article on Contrition itself. This seems to indicate some kind of sequential relationship. Now I guess I'm the one confused.
Contrition. Movement of heart prior to conversion, namely, “that the heart perceive sin, [and] dread God's wrath” (FCSD II 70). Before the time of Luther, teachings pertaining to contrition and repentance were admittedly confused (Ap XII 4–7). In rabbinic Judaism, repentance (Heb. teshubah, “return”) was often man's self-redemption from the thralldom of sin. The RCCh. teaches that “perfect contrition justifies the sinner even without the Sacrament of Penance” (E. J. Hanna, “Attrition,” The Catholic Cyclopedia, II [New York, 1907], 66; see also Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, sess. XIV, Sacrament of Penance, ch. 4). By “perfect contrition” RCs mean detestation of sin that arises from love of God. That which arises from any other motive (e.g., fear of losing salvation) is considered attrition.* In rationalism contrition is the first step toward self-improvement, which it regards the essence of salvation. In many Prot. circles the view prevails either that contrition procures forgiveness of sins or, in milder form, that contrition has an influence on God, moving Him to forgive.
Two truths are taught in Scripture regarding contrition: 1. The nonexistence of conversion where contrition has not preceded (FCSD II 70). Contrition is the indispensable preparation for conversion. Fear of God's wrath and damnation always precedes faith (Jl 2:12; Mk 1:15; Lk 15:18; 18:13; 24:47; Acts 2:37; 16:29; FCSD II 54, 70). One who does not experience such anguish of conscience (terrores conscientiae, result of awareness of God's law), despises God's grace (Lk 5:31–39; Ap XII 51; XIII 21; AC XII). Luther emphasized that true contrition is not active (activa contritio), i. e., fabricated remorse, but passive (passiva contritio), i. e., true sorrow of the heart, suffering, and pain of death (SA III iii 2). But from this it is not to be concluded that contrition is a cause of forgiveness (Ro 3:28). 2. Contrition in no way brings about, implements, or occasions justification through faith (WA 6, 545; 52, 271; 48, 335; FCSD III 30–31). Good works do not justify (Eph 2:8); the contrition of the unconverted person is not even a good work, since it is joined with hatred toward God (God justifies the ungodly, Ro 4:5). As soon as one longs for divine grace, faith exists in the heart (Is 42:3; Mk 9:24; cf.FCSD II 14). Faith is engendered by the Holy Spirit through the Word (see Conversion, II 2–3). EL
I'm a bit confused and struggling with this also. The sinful heart perceives its sin by the Holy Spirit bringing to the sinner the fear of damnation and wrath. God's love, mercy and forgiveness has nothing to do with it. Its all about fear...it seems
The unconverted one, happy in their sin, is brought to contrition, which is partly hate and yet also passive (?), then brought to a loving faith in the Lord and His message of redemption.
Is this how Jesus brought the message?
JTM
__________________ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Jesus knew the heart, so he knew when to give the Law to those who clung to their sins and he knew when to give the gospel to those who were cut to the heart with fear because of their sins.
Jesus knew the heart, so he knew when to give the Law to those who clung to their sins and he knew when to give the gospel to those who were cut to the heart with fear because of their sins.
All the unconverted are the same...no? In any case I thought Jesus was all Gospel in the Good News, so to speak?
Are you saying Jesus somehow used the Law to convert when needed and switched gears to the Gospel, which is Himself, when needed?
JTM
__________________ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
All the unconverted are the same...no? In any case I thought Jesus was all Gospel in the Good News, so to speak?
Are you saying Jesus somehow used the Law to convert when needed and switched gears to the Gospel, which is Himself, when needed?
JTM
The Law accuses us and brings us to contrition, Jesus used the Law when it was necessary. The Gospel relieves that contrition and gives us the joy of eternal life. The Law does not convert us...or in other words, change us into the New Adam.
What about coming to God through love? I can't relate to this fear and contrition stuff. Whenever I have felt separated from God it was through a state of depression, which would eventually lift and then I was overjoyed to have faith again. I don't think fear is an effect means of coming to God, I think that love is the only effective way to come to God. "Those who know love know God", but no where does the Bible say that those who know fear know God.
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What about coming to God through love? I can't relate to this fear and contrition stuff. Whenever I have felt separated from God it was through a state of depression, which would eventually lift and then I was overjoyed to have faith again. I don't think fear is an effect means of coming to God, I think that love is the only effective way to come to God. "Those who know love know God", but no where does the Bible say that those who know fear know God.
Depression is not lack of faith. Feeling good does not mean your faith is stronger. Faith is just that - a gift that belongs to us whether happy or sad.
__________________ I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20 To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
We get so turned around in our own thinking, we become a theological cat chasing our own tail. This is why I preach mainly Bible stories and look for illustrations to answer these questions. Instead of finding an answer in our mind, read the Bible. What do you see?
Decision theology. It makes perfect sense. It is so logical and that is the real danger. However, that doesn't mean it's right. I see lots of confusion here over something so basic. Find some people in the new TEstament who came to follow Jesus on their own. Good luck. Jesus reveals Himself.
Free will. Again it makes sense. Look at Abraham. His best intentions however ended in the birth of Ishmael! It was only after he was as good as dead that he became useful and could bear the son of promise.
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