1 Cor. 13:10

DeaconDean · #1 5th November 2009, 08:45 AM

1 Cor. 13:10:

otan de elqh to teleion, to ek merouV katarghqhsetai.

To whom, or what is the "teleion" in reference to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

mlqurgw · #2 5th November 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

1 Cor. 13:10:

To whom, or what is the "teleion" in reference to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I honestly don't know. It is a question that I have asked many times but have no light on as yet. I do not think it is in reference to the Scriptures as we have them now as some seem to believe. I will keep praying for light on it though.

DeaconDean · #3 5th November 2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by mlqurgw

I honestly don't know. It is a question that I have asked many times but have no light on as yet. I do not think it is in reference to the Scriptures as we have them now as some seem to believe. I will keep praying for light on it though.

I am currently looking into this.

I have several lexicons and using the library at www.perseus.tufts.edu with insight into the origins of this word. (lots of great resources here)

I have some ideas, but, I'm sure there are a few here who will naturally disagree with any conclusion I come up with.

I was just asking for opinions.

And your right, I was amazed at how many think and/or believe that this is a reference to the scriptures.

Anyway, thanks Ron. God Bless ya brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

nobdysfool · #4 5th November 2009, 10:36 AM

I do not believe that it refers to the scriptures, based on the context of Paul's discourse. He contrasts "knowing in part" and "prophesying in part" with the "perfect" which "shall come", indicating that it is not yet here. He goes on to contrast the actions and understanding of children with those of an adult, with a future "face to face" contrasted with now seeing through a glass darkly, or maybe more correctly, a "darkened glass", or a poorly reflective mirror.

Based on the overall context, I believe Paul is referring to the Second Coming, when we shall both see Christ as He is, and be like Him, having received our glorified bodies, which will bring the clarity and perfection of knowledge that he alludes to throughout this passage.

I do not believe that a case can be made for the Scriptures being the "perfect" that Paul mentions and contrasts with the partial. No translation is perfect, and there are variances even among the original language texts we have. Perfection would not allow for that. Usually, such an interpretation is cited in reference to the spiritual gifts of 1 Cor. 12, and the tongues of 1 Cor. 14, as a way to claim that such gifts ceased. As such, it stands as an eisegetic attempt to shoot down an uncomfortable subject for many believers, one that they just don't want to deal with.

LiveInSpirit · #5 5th November 2009, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Webers_Home

.
Christian Forums is an English language community for people who speak and write with the English language. Posting messages in Greek is not only a self-serving practice; but worse, it's a barrier to Christian communication.
/

We all have the English handy in our Bibles. Not all of us have the Greek sitting next to us.

DeaconDean is anything but self-serving. He is sincerely looking for help with a Greek word in the manuscripts. Posting in only English would not suffice.

Your exegesis on why our brother should NEVER post anything in Greek is disappointing.

Andy S. Wright · #6 5th November 2009, 12:33 PM

Clearly whatever the word "perfect" is referring to in that passage has not come yet. In spite of protestations to the contrary by far too many "theologians" in our midst, no one is operating in "perfect" knowledge or prophecy; we're still operating "in part". The fragmented collection of denominations that is modern Christianity is plenty of evidence to the fallicy of interpreting that word to mean the completed scriptures. We've had the completed scriptures for millennia and we can't seem to agree on anything beyond "Jesus is the son of God".

Hentenza · #7 5th November 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

1 Cor. 13:10:

To whom, or what is the "teleion" in reference to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

We can only partially love now but, when perfection comes, then our knowledge will be complete and so will be our love. Faith and hope will be fulfilled at the second coming but love will be perfected.

Andy S. Wright · #8 5th November 2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Webers_Home

.Posting messages in Greek is not only a self-serving practice; but worse, it's a barrier to Christian communication./

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your response (and if I have I stand ready to be corrected) but is there a reason you've chosen to start your responding post with an offensive judgment call on a man's motives? This isn't exactly the best way to establish a productive discourse. As far as I'm concerned, everything you wrote after that opening paragraph may as well have been in Greek.

Oh, and I haven't missed the irony of you quoting 1 Corinthians 14:1 after your opening attack on a brother's character.

*EDIT* After reading the rest of your post more carefully I would suggest you need to spend more time in the word (a good starting point would be 1 Corinthians 13) and less time attempting to "correct" your brothers in Christ.

Blessings,

ASW

PrincetonGuy · #9 5th November 2009, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

I am currently looking into this.

I have several lexicons and using the library at www.perseus.tufts.edu with insight into the origins of this word. (lots of great resources here)

I have some ideas, but, I'm sure there are a few here who will naturally disagree with any conclusion I come up with.

I was just asking for opinions.

And your right, I was amazed at how many think and/or believe that this is a reference to the scriptures.

Anyway, thanks Ron. God Bless ya brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

My dear Christian readers,

DeaconDean’s question is a good one because there have been, during the past 90-100 years, very many Baptists teaching that το τελειον (translated as ‘that which is perfect’ in the KJV) is speaking of the Scriptures, our Bible. This teaching originated out of a desire to teach from the Scriptures that the gift of tongues (a very hot issue 90-100 years ago) had passed away. It is argued by these Baptists that το τελειον is neuter in gender and therefore cannot be speaking of Christ (masculine in gender) and His return, as was the teaching of Baptists and the very large majority other Christians prior to that time. This teaching is without any merit of any sort, however, because the words are speaking of the event of Christ’s second coming (neuter in gender) when that which is partial will be done away, and that which is complete and perfect comes to be.

1 Cor. 13:9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. (NASB, 1995)

The correct interpretation cannot be determined by consulting lexicons alone because the determining factor in this case is the context. Today, we know in part and we prophesy in part, but upon the second coming of Christ, we will know fully just as we have been known fully. The context and the resulting meaning are very clear, and I am not aware of a single, exegetical commentary on the Greek text of 1 Corinthians written by a Baptist or a Christian of any other affiliation that interprets it in an appreciably different manner.

Hentenza · #10 5th November 2009, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy

My dear Christian readers,

DeaconDean’s question is a good one because there have been, during the past 90-100 years, very many Baptists teaching that το τελειον (translated as ‘that which is perfect’ in the KJV) is speaking of the Scriptures, our Bible. This teaching originated out of a desire to teach from the Scriptures that the gift of tongues (a very hot issue 90-100 years ago) had passed away. It is argued by these Baptists that το τελειον is neuter in gender and therefore cannot be speaking of Christ (masculine in gender) and His return, as was the teaching of Baptists and the very large majority other Christians prior to that time. This teaching is without any merit of any sort, however, because the words are speaking of the event of Christ’s second coming (neuter in gender) when that which is partial will be done away, and that which is complete and perfect comes to be.

1 Cor. 13:9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. (NASB, 1995)

The correct interpretation cannot be determined by consulting lexicons alone because the determining factor in this case is the context. Today, we know in part and we prophesy in part, but upon the second coming of Christ, we will know fully just as we have been known fully. The context and the resulting meaning are very clear, and I am not aware of a single, exegetical commentary on the Greek text of 1 Corinthians written by a Baptist or a Christian of any other affiliation that interprets it in an appreciably different manner.

The OP did not put forth this premise. It seems that you are simply assuming. Maybe answering the question without bias might result in a productive moment of learning.