Now brother Henry, if I have in any way acted in an un-Christlike manner, please show me.
God Bless
Till all are one.
I purposely used the word "some". To me there is simply no need to continue brow beating someone just because he/she posted an opinion.
__________________ If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend. Augustine
Yes, And I'm getting My ankles chewed as We speak.
Um, no. People are responding to your encouragement to stay ignorant, to not dig too deep into the Scriptures because that is bad, and that Scriptures are easy enough for everyone to understand. I am opposed to the stay ignorant logic, as i am opposed to your assertion that the Scriptures are easy enough for unbelievers to understand.
I am equally opposed to false humility.
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Give me one good reason why the word "teleion" must be rendered "perfect"?
If I am collecting eggs, for example, and placing them in a carton, when I have 12 and make a dozen, does that make them "perfect"?
Or just complete?
P. Chantraine asserts that this word derives from "teloV".
P. Chantraine, La Formation des nom en Grec Ancien, 1933, 49f.
Bearing this in mind, lets move to this...
This word later can be associated with "telew". In Attic and other sources, one finds "teloV" for "teleioV".
"telew" means to finish, complete, conclude, an operation, Mt. 11:1;13:53; 19:1; et. al.; to finish, a circuit, Mt. 10:23; to carry out into full operation, Rom. 2:27, Gla. 5:16; Jas. 2:8; to pay dues, Mt. 17:24, et.al.; pass. to be fulfilled, realized, Lk. 12:50; 18:31; et.al.; of time, to be ended, elapse, Rev. 15:8; 20:3,5,7.
A lot of the same definitions for "telew" are found in "teleioV".
So, why must this word always be rendered as "perfect"?
We are given these gifts as a partial in this lifetime, but when that which is complete (Jesus Christ) has come, then that which is partial (gifts) shall be completed (fully realized, through, complete, entire, full grown, etc.) and done away with.
There will be not need for these gifts as Paul said, for I will know, even as I am known.
But here again, why must "teleion" always be rendered as "perfect"?
God Bless
Till all are one.
When words have more than one meaning in the donor language, the most correct translation for the recipient language is determined by the context. The context of 1 Cor. 13:10 strongly suggests that το τελειον be translated using the word perfect rather than the word complete (the context is that of a divine event, and the word perfect is preferable over complete in speaking of the divine and things pertaining to the divine). It cannot be a reference to the person of Jesus Christ because the gender is neuter rather than masculine; it is a reference to an event, the second coming of Christ.
--Wycliffe Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 but whanne that schal come that is parfit, that thing that is of parti schal be auoidid.
--Tyndale New Testament 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when yt which is parfect is come then yt which is vnparfet shall be done awaye.
--Bishop’s Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect, is come, then that which is vnperfect shalbe done away.
--Geneva Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect, is come, then that which is in part, shalbe abolished.
-- King James 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
-- New King James 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
-- American Standard 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
-- Revised Standard 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
--English Standard Version 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
--New International Version 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
--International Standard Version But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
-- New American Standard 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
--Douay-Rheims Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
-- New Jerusalem Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 but once perfection comes, all imperfect things will be done away with.
-- New American Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
-- New Revised Standard Version 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.
-- Young's Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.
-- Darby's Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away.
-- Weymouth's New Testament 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect state of things is come, all that is imperfect will be brought to an end.
-- Webster's Bible 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
-- Reina Valera Actualizada 1 Corinthians 13:10 pero cuando venga lo que es perfecto, entonces lo que es en parte será abolido.
-- Latin Vulgate 1 Corinthians 13:10 cum autem venerit quod perfectum est evacuabitur quod ex parte est
-- William's NewTestament 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when perfection comes, what is imperfect will be set aside.
-- Montgomery New Testament 1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect is come, then the imperfect will be done away.
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Last edited by PrincetonGuy; 6th November 2009 at 01:11 PM.
I also believe "perfect" refers to THE event, the second coming, of Jesus Christ.
__________________ For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries. (Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers, W.W. Norton, New York, 1978, p. 116)
An antique car many be complete, having all of its parts, but the steel may be rusty, the brass tarnished, and the upholstery worn. Once the car is fully restored, however, it will not just be complete, it will be in perfect condition.
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Originally Posted by thefivesolas
Okay, just checkin
Personally, i believe to be a consistent cessationist one must say that all of the gifts have ceased, not just two or three.
I don't think many cessationists argue that belief too deeply. It creates more problems than it solves....
Originally Posted by thefivesolas
But, who has the gift of healing these days ? I mean the authentic kind where a man walks in a hospital and heals everyone.
I think this is a standard misconception and mis-interpretation of the gift. Never in scripture is it said that these gifts are under man's control, to use as man wills, which your example would be a very clear demonstration of. And who would be glorified in such a demonstration?
Originally Posted by thefivesolas
Now, i believe God heals as He always has, but which man today has the Holy Spirit given gift of healing ?
Does lack of evidence prove evidence of lack? Your logic is faulty at this point. If the Holy Spirit has gifted someone with the gifts of healings (read your scriptures carefully), would it be proper for that man to call attention to himself? And, wouldn't healings be given as God wills the same as we believe Salvation is? Let's be consistent in how we view these things.
Originally Posted by thefivesolas
Do you see what i mean ? In some way we are all cessationists to one degree or another.
More correctly, many choose to be cessationists. It's easier than spending time before God, seeking Him and asking for enlightenment as to what Jesus meant when He said, "the works that I do, ye shall do, and greater works than these, because I go to the Father".... What was Jesus talking about?
I think that James' words may hold a clue:
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
When the above mentioned , so-called "proof" that the gifts are not in operation today because there is no one walking the hospitals healing every sick person, what would be the motivation for doing so? Think about it
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Faith in Christ is the evidence of Predestination and Election, not the cause of it....
We didn't believe in order to be born again, we were born again in order to believe.
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Last edited by nobdysfool; 8th November 2009 at 12:53 PM.
“Perfect,” or just “complete”? 
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