Based on the overall context, I believe Paul is referring to the Second Coming, when we shall both see Christ as He is, and be like Him, having received our glorified bodies, which will bring the clarity and perfection of knowledge that he alludes to throughout this passage.
I believe your close to what is being expressed because Paul also qualifies his remark by telling the Corinthians:
"now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (vs. 12)
When will our knowledge be complete? Can the scriptures alone give us complete knowledge of who and what God is? ANd, when will the spiritual gifts be not needed? Any time in this life?
No, it is only when we are in His presence that these "gifts" will no longer be needed and we'll have complete knowledge.
Thanks for your comments brother.
God Bless
Till all are one.
__________________ "Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed. Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad...Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me." -Jer. 20: 14-15, 17 (KJV)
Last edited by DeaconDean; 5th November 2009 at 03:31 PM.
The OP did not put forth this premise. It seems that you are simply assuming. Maybe answering the question without bias might result in a productive moment of learning.
No, it did not put forth any premise, and I wrote nothing to suggest that it did. I simply answered the question that DeaconDean posed, providing an answer that agrees not only with the very best of New Testament scholarship, but also with what DeaconDean wrote, “I was amazed at how many think and/or believe that this is a reference to the scriptures.” Another poster criticized DeaconDean; I complimented him for his question and supported his belief.
Perhaps I need to be even more clear here. I was not arguing against any premise that DeaconDean put forth, for he set forth no premise, but arguing against the belief that το τελειον is a reference to the Scriptures, a belief that DeaconDean himself found amazing.
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Last edited by PrincetonGuy; 5th November 2009 at 03:57 PM.
Reason: To add a second paragraph
Just an aside comment here but I have observed over the years that a great deal of cessationist teaching is based more on a fear of association of other types of Christians than on rightly dividing the entire word of truth. That isn't the best foundation to build a body of doctrines on IMO.
Just my .02. Do with it what you will.
__________________ Jesus Christ died for our sins. Too many of his followers live for them.
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." - Romans 14:1
"Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. " - Romans 14:4
"that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another." - 1 Corinthians 12:25
Just an aside comment here but I have observed over the years that a great deal of cessationist teaching is based more on a fear of association of other types of Christians than on rightly dividing the entire word of truth. That isn't the best foundation to build a body of doctrines on IMO.
Just my .02. Do with it what you will.
Andy, would you consider the type of people that Jude describes in his letter just other "Types of Christians" ? Do you consider Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, the Toronto Blessing movement, the Open Heaven movement, the Lakeland "revival" movement, and other such blasphemers other types of Christians ?
For the record, im leaning in Deans' and nobodysfool direction.
Andy, would you consider the type of people that Jude describes in his letter just other "Types of Christians" ? Do you consider Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, the Toronto Blessing movement, the Open Heaven movement, the Lakeland "revival" movement, and other such blasphemers other types of Christians ?
For the record, im leaning in Deans' and nobodysfool direction.
I would consider those listed above to be charlatans and dog & pony shows that have abused the scriptures in the opposite direction of the cessationist belief system.
What I see with both sides of this argument are extreme reactions to one another. One side believes the cessation of all spiritual gifts as described in Acts with the completion of the scriptures while others believe in carte blanche spiritualism over the clearly written word of God.
In the middle of these viewpoints, I believe, lies the truth...as usual.
__________________ Jesus Christ died for our sins. Too many of his followers live for them.
"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." - Romans 14:1
"Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. " - Romans 14:4
"that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another." - 1 Corinthians 12:25
I would consider those listed above to be charlatans and dog & pony shows that have abused the scriptures in the opposite direction of the cessationist belief system.
Okay, just checkin
Originally Posted by Andy S. Wright
What I see with both sides of this argument are extreme reactions to one another. One side believes the cessation of all spiritual gifts as described in Acts with the completion of the scriptures while others believe in carte blanche spiritualism over the clearly written word of God.
Personally, i believe to be a consistent cessationist one must say that all of the gifts have ceased, not just two or three.
But, who has the gift of healing these days ? I mean the authentic kind where a man walks in a hospital and heals everyone.
Now, i believe God heals as He always has, but which man today has the Holy Spirit given gift of healing ?
Do you see what i mean ? In some way we are all cessationists to one degree or another.
To whom, or what is the "teleion" in reference to?
God Bless
Till all are one.
It would seem to me, in reference to the context of the speech at hand, that "teleion" or rather the perfect refers to our nature being perfected, or out spirit, or our body, or even every part of us all these being combined. Obviously no one is perfect now, nor will we be perfect until we are incarnated into new bodies. Therefore it would appear that the teleion refers to the perfection of the brethren when we are raised to new life in the world to come.
I believe that You fellows are disecting and anylizing the Scriptures way too deeply. The scriptures Were meant for all to read and understand even the uneducated andif that was not so, We would have to all have earthly priest to interpret scripture for us . I just thank God that is not so. For the Lord did Want Us to search the scriptures. Keep on Keepin on ...God Loves You all.... Dave
Last edited by flaglady; 14th November 2009 at 12:11 PM.
Reason: staff edit
Personally, i believe to be a consistent cessationist one must say that all of the gifts have ceased, not just two or three.
But, who has the gift of healing these days ? I mean the authentic kind where a man walks in a hospital and heals everyone.
Now, i believe God heals as He always has, but which man today has the Holy Spirit given gift of healing ?
Do you see what i mean ? In some way we are all cessationists to one degree or another.
There are Biblical reasons for being a cessationist that have nothing to do with 1Cor. 13:10. I will not go into them here as that isn't the purpose of the thread and I don't want to contribute to derailing it.
There are Biblical reasons for being a cessationist that have nothing to do with 1Cor. 13:10. I will not go into them here as that isn't the purpose of the thread and I don't want to contribute to derailing it.
I for one would like to hear them, would you open a new OP ?
I believe that You fellows are disecting and anylizing the Scriptures way too deeply. The scriptures Were meant for all to read and understand even the uneducated andif that was not so, We would have to all have earthly priest to interpret scripture for us . I just thank God that is not so. For the Lord did Want Us to search the scriptures. Keep on Keepin on ...God Loves You all.... Dave
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