Ahhh. Found an answer you like. Good luck with that.
I didn't take it that way. I thought he was simply pointing out, rather gently, that Wineskin's answer was specific to the question. There's been a bit of wandering off from that in the thread.
I think we have to apply a much higher standard to leaders who fail, but God can and does restore anyone.
I dont think Todd Bentley's sin went as far as murder and adultery, and yet he is far more despised than someone like King David from the postings I have seen here.
God does not 'restore anyone'. He does not 'restore' false teachers and false prophets. Bentley is exactly that.
Which is why he is 'far more "despised" than someone like King David'.
Please understand, for many/most of us who "despise" (warn people about) Bentley, this is nothing to do with a leader who failed, and forgiveness and restoration. It's all about a wolf in the church, a false teacher and false prophet who needs to be exposed and kept away from the sheep.
I am more than willing to forgive and restore genuine Christians who fail.
The chastisement of the Lord is painful to our human nature. When God rebukes and corrects us, I don't think any of us find that enjoyable. It may require us to dig deep inside and uncover past hurts or wounds. It may be painful initially, but it surely profits us when we heed His discipline.
I don't believe God "punishes" us. I believe that He disciplines us in Love to mold us more and more into His image. It's up to us whether we heed His discipline or not. Should we choose to ignore that discipline and continue in our own way, we may find ourselves dealing with consequences of our own making, much like the prodigal son.
I don't really use the word "punishment" to convey this principle, generally because of the negative connotation and potential for misunderstanding that it brings. It really does have a meaning that's perfectly good for this discussion, and so I used it here, but it has simply become insurmountable. Having an argument about words and missing the meaning is not effective communication. So, to be clear, this thread is about church discipline, so I'll leave discussion of other forms of biblical chastisement for another day.
Paul states pretty clearly that we can be turned over by church leadership to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He also states that we can be marked or removed from fellowship. In those instances, it's clear that it has to be done by the power of God, or obviously, it won't work. There are two purposes I see in scripture for these severe measures:
1. protect the flock
2. bring a sinning brother to his senses before he is destroyed
References for these are found in 1 Co 5, 11 and Acts 5. Following Christ is certainly fraught with extreme challenge when one is being obedient, and what you are describing as chastisement just sounds like that to me. Chastisement is for the disobedient, for "if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged". And finally, this is a manifestation of grace and God's love, who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
If Bentley had not been a prolific, nationally known minister...say a missions pastor or an executive pastor of a medium sized subarban church...and he had ministered faithfully for many years before hand...and had a moral failure (affair)...let's say it went on for a couple of months then he was confronted by friends, the sin was made known to the congregation, he admitted his wrong, ended the affair for good, asked for forgiveness and made restitution as best he could, reconciled with his wife. His wife fully forgave him and supported him he did not try to hide it in any future ministry...how long do you feel he should wait before he returned to ministry?
Please...I want some serious, thoughtful answers on this one. Don't be hasty and judgemental, but also be honest how you would feel about it and if you attended the church where this person was a pastor how you would feel about it.
If you found out your pastor had had a moral failure, how much time would have to have elapsed for you to feel comfortable with him as your pastor?
Would it make a difference if it was a different church? Why?
How long would be long enough?
When would you feel comfortable with them as a minister?
Do you think a moral failure makes someone unfit for ministry?
Do you think a moral failure in the past makes a person less capable to be a minister or does failure make them more compassionate and possibly a better person and minister for it?
A person, who could commit deliberate sin, has never known God. If he or she did know God then there is no forgiveness for them.
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
Hebrews 10:26-27) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.
So a minister like whom you are describing would need to be judged by the church members. If he had known God, he should be thrown out.
(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that. It is not my business to pass judgment on those outside. Of those who are inside, you can surely be the judges. But of those who are outside, God is the judge. You must drive out this evil-doer from among you.”
If this minister didn’t know God, which is most likely, then he needs to come to know God. That means the whole congregation also needs to come to know God. If the congregation had known God, they would have recognized that their minister did not know God.
__________________ No matter who tells you anything about God; you are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
Some people have an infinite capacity for rationalizing reality to fit their personal ideas.
Punishment can be used in two senses. One is retribution; payback to the wrongdoer. God punishes in that sense as expressed in the scripture where it says He will repay.
That's not the sense of punishment that is expressed in correction by God for a Christian. The purpose of punishment/chastisement through church discipline is to bring us to repentance so that we are not condemned with the world:
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“ My son, do not despise thechastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 Forwhom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
7 If[b] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Too many Christians don't understand that God's love is to chasten us. If He didn't love us, He would just let us go our way uncorrected, and end up destroyed.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
I agree. “Punishment” (if that’s the right term) should be redemptive. Much of our desire to punish leaders who fail and are publicly exposed is to reprimand them for embarrassing us.
That is not to say that punishment/correction is not necessary if we are to redeem them. Not only does sin cripple the life and testimony of the sinner but in a larger sense it makes our message hollow when we ignore it.
Paul prescribed this punishment for a wrongdoer in the Corinthian church (note bold phrase):
1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship. 3 Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. 5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns. 6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. (1 Cor. 5)
It seems to have worked, because in the next epistle to the Corninthaisn the Apostle writes:
1 So I decided that I would not bring you grief with another painful visit. 2 For if I cause you grief, who will make me glad? Certainly not someone I have grieved. 3 That is why I wrote to you as I did, so that when I do come, I won’t be grieved by the very ones who ought to give me the greatest joy. Surely you all know that my joy comes from your being joyful. 4 I wrote that letter in great anguish, with a troubled heart and many tears. I didn’t want to grieve you, but I wanted to let you know how much love I have for you. 5 I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me. 6 Most of you opposed him, and that was punishment enough. 7 Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise he may be overcome by discouragement. 8 So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him. 9 I wrote to you as I did to test you and see if you would fully comply with my instructions. 10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes. (2 Cor. 2)
~Jim
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis
__________________
If we only knew what we think we know.
-
That's me, second from the left: \o\ /o/ \o\\o\\o\\o\\o\\o\\o\\o\\o\\o\
1 Tim 3:1 ..whoever aspires to the office of bishop (overseer) desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, (the book of Titus where the instructions are given again says 'above reproach'.) married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable etc ...verse 7 Morever, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that may not fall into the disgrace and the snare of the devil.
And lots more.
If the church actually followed the instructions God gave us for leaders/shepherds in the church, christianity would be very differet.
If outsiders don't respect a christian leader, it creates a bad example and witness of the church and those in it. Who wants to join a church run by an adulterer? Specifically one who knew better because he was a christian. One thing from the pulpit and a hand up someone elses skirt on the side. Do you think non-christians don't see this kind of hypocrisy as what it is, and judge the church accordingly? Yes, adultery and immorality can be forgiven, but to put that person back running a church? You've got to be kidding. It sets a horrible example.
When christian leaders are well thought of by outsiders, outsiders are more likely to trust christianity in general. When they arn't, it can be shunned and damned as a hypocritical cult and not suprisingly.
God says what he says for a reason.
I have really strayed today. But thought this was an interesting thread. Would I be allowed to make some comments?
I agree. “Punishment” (if that’s the right term) should be redemptive. Much of our desire to punish leaders who fail and are publicly exposed is to reprimand them for embarrassing us.
That is not to say that punishment/correction is not necessary if we are to redeem them. Not only does sin cripple the life and testimony of the sinner but in a larger sense it makes our message hollow when we ignore it.
Paul prescribed this punishment for a wrongdoer in the Corinthian church (note bold phrase):
1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship. 3 Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. 5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns. 6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. (1 Cor. 5)
It seems to have worked, because in the next epistle to the Corninthaisn the Apostle writes:
1 So I decided that I would not bring you grief with another painful visit. 2 For if I cause you grief, who will make me glad? Certainly not someone I have grieved. 3 That is why I wrote to you as I did, so that when I do come, I won’t be grieved by the very ones who ought to give me the greatest joy. Surely you all know that my joy comes from your being joyful. 4 I wrote that letter in great anguish, with a troubled heart and many tears. I didn’t want to grieve you, but I wanted to let you know how much love I have for you. 5 I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me. 6 Most of you opposed him, and that was punishment enough. 7 Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise he may be overcome by discouragement. 8 So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him. 9 I wrote to you as I did to test you and see if you would fully comply with my instructions. 10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes. (2 Cor. 2)
~Jim
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis
(1 Corinthians 10:6-13) “These things all happened as warnings’ for us, not to have the wicked lusts for forbidden things that they had. Do not become idolaters as some of them did, for scripture says: After sitting down to eat and drink, the people got up to amuse themselves. We must never fall into sexual immorality: some of them did, and twenty-three thousand met their downfall in one day. We are not to put the Lord to the test: some of them did and they were killed by snakes. You must never complain: some of them did, and they were killed by the Destroyer. All this happened to them as a warning, and it was written down to be a lesson for us who are living at the end of the age. The man who thinks he is safe must be careful that he does not fall. The trials that you have had to bear are no more than people normally have. You can trust God not to let you be tried beyond your strength, and with any trial he will give you a way out of it and the strength to bear it.”
Don’t let the blind theologians guide you to Hell.
__________________ No matter who tells you anything about God; you are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
Some people have an infinite capacity for rationalizing reality to fit their personal ideas.
2Cr 6:8by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; {regarded} as deceivers and yet true;
Paul was in prison, didn't get along well with others, even in the ministry, he was quarrelsome, there were divisions.
What do you do with Paul if the qualification for ministry is to be thought well by outsiders? I believe he had blood on his hands, as he says, he is the chief of sinners.
We need a new way of dealing with the sins of others. We got the old way down.
But TB is not a real minister so doesn't fit the test case here anyways.
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