Too many Christians don't understand that God's love is to chasten us. If He didn't love us, He would just let us go our way uncorrected, and end up destroyed.
I don't believe God punishes us. I believe Jesus took our punishment, and that He was the propitiation for all of our sin;
1 John 2:2 (AMP)
And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
God most certainly disciplines and corrects us, but unlike we've been trained to think that discipline requires "punishment", this scripture says otherwise;
1 John 4:18 (AMP)
There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].
Fear has to do with the thought of punishment, and perfect Love casts out fear. Knowing then that God IS perfect Love, I'm not so sure our ideas of what Godly "discipline" should look like are correct.
__________________ "You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
I don't believe God punishes us. I believe Jesus took our punishment, and that He was the propitiation for all of our sin;
1 John 2:2 (AMP) And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
God most certainly disciplines and corrects us, but unlike we've been trained to think that discipline requires "punishment", this scripture says otherwise;
1 John 4:18 (AMP) There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].
Fear has to do with the thought of punishment, and perfect Love casts out fear. Knowing then that God IS perfect Love, I'm not so sure our ideas of what Godly "discipline" should look like are correct.
I think in order to understand that passage you need to take it in context:
17By this, (AS)love is perfected with us, so that we may have (AT)confidence in (AU)the day of judgment; because (AV)as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but (AW)perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not (AX)perfected in love.
This indicates the fear being spoken of is the fear of the day of judgment- perfect love of God has taken away that fear, and whoever still fears it has not been made perfect in love. So the punishment we are not to fear is the condemnation that Jesus has redeemed us from. That is what I stated previously- punishment can mean payback.
"Vengeance is mine, I will repay", says the Lord.
That's not what we are talking about in the chastisement of the Lord. I'm really not sure what you think that is supposed to mean at this point. Maybe you could state what you think the chastisement of the Lord is.
I think in order to understand that passage you need to take it in context:
17By this, (AS)love is perfected with us, so that we may have (AT)confidence in (AU)the day of judgment; because (AV)as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but (AW)perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not (AX)perfected in love.
This indicates the fear being spoken of is the fear of the day of judgment- perfect love of God has taken away that fear, and whoever still fears it has not been made perfect in love.
I don't think it indicates and/or classifies fear as only the day of judgment. If that were the case, the scripture could more clearly state that fear of judgment day involves punishment. But it doesn't say that.
The scripture is clear that fear brings with it the thought of punishment. It does not say nor imply that it is talking ONLY about the fear of judgment day.
Originally Posted by JEBrady
So the punishment we are not to fear is the condemnation that Jesus has redeemed us from. That is what I stated previously- punishment can mean payback.
But again, the scripture says that fear brings with it the thought of punishment. It doesn't tell us we should fear some punishments, but not the punishment on judgment day. It simply says that perfect Love casts out fear, which brings with it the thought of punishment.
Originally Posted by JEBrady
That's not what we are talking about in the chastisement of the Lord. I'm really not sure what you think that is supposed to mean at this point. Maybe you could state what you think the chastisement of the Lord is.
The chastisement of the Lord is painful to our human nature. When God rebukes and corrects us, I don't think any of us find that enjoyable. It may require us to dig deep inside and uncover past hurts or wounds. It may be painful initially, but it surely profits us when we heed His discipline.
I don't believe God "punishes" us. I believe that He disciplines us in Love to mold us more and more into His image. It's up to us whether we heed His discipline or not. Should we choose to ignore that discipline and continue in our own way, we may find ourselves dealing with consequences of our own making, much like the prodigal son.
__________________ "You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
If Bentley had not been a prolific, nationally known minister...
Not to be argumentative with you on this, but I think your chosen example of Bentley is not a good one for the topic.
Jesus was very specific about who truly believed in Him,..
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
Bentley never did anything remotely like Jesus, hence he never had a ministry from GOD. You can't restore something to someone who never had it in the first place.
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"GOD doesn't call the qualified, HE qualifies the called."
"There's no glory in the flesh, and no heavenly reward either."
It is only the law that makes blanket requirements. And, the man dutifully submitted to the law is doomed to repeat his failure. For his stumble is rooted there in the first place!
Restoration takes as much time as it takes, no less, no more.
Too many who apparently fell from grace were never “in grace” in the first place.
Their ministry is born out of their own bruised ego and their desire to heal their own wounded flesh (by flesh I mean sinful nature)
It is hard to be born again when you have never died in the first place.
Such a man may be better after his fall if his fall brings him to the place where he dies to self and lives anew in Christ.
The evidence of this transformation is apparent.
Also apparent are those who are only sorry they got caught and are now only seeking to return to the “flesh” peddling they were doing before.
In a sense they are restored to their former glory, since, that glory was their own in the first place.
No worries however, as flesh sells, even religious flesh, and people will line up to get a share. Anything is better for the flesh than death
John O.
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Veritas Ipsa Loquitur
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If Bentley had not been a prolific, nationally known minister...say a missions pastor or an executive pastor of a medium sized subarban church...and he had ministered faithfully for many years before hand...and had a moral failure (affair)...let's say it went on for a couple of months then he was confronted by friends, the sin was made known to the congregation, he admitted his wrong, ended the affair for good, asked for forgiveness and made restitution as best he could, reconciled with his wife. His wife fully forgave him and supported him he did not try to hide it in any future ministry...how long do you feel he should wait before he returned to ministry?
Please...I want some serious, thoughtful answers on this one. Don't be hasty and judgemental, but also be honest how you would feel about it and if you attended the church where this person was a pastor how you would feel about it.
If you found out your pastor had had a moral failure, how much time would have to have elapsed for you to feel comfortable with him as your pastor?
Would it make a difference if it was a different church? Why?
How long would be long enough?
When would you feel comfortable with them as a minister?
Do you think a moral failure makes someone unfit for ministry?
Do you think a moral failure in the past makes a person less capable to be a minister or does failure make them more compassionate and possibly a better person and minister for it?
Coming at it from the angle that he would be a part of *my* group , I would say that action in this type of situation it would depend on his major themes in sermons in the past . If he was holiness , he would be out for good . If he was consistent with grace and mercy , then wait for the whole congregation to pray and be ready for a return so that the whole group be unified in if and when the return . I would look at his attitude of being one of the rest to see if he was ready .
Coming at it from the angle that he would be a part of *my* group , I would say that action in this type of situation it would depend on his major themes in sermons in the past . If he was holiness , he would be out for good . If he was consistent with grace and mercy , then wait for the whole congregation to pray and be ready for a return so that the whole group be unified in if and when the return . I would look at his attitude of being one of the rest to see if he was ready .
1 Tim 3:1 ..whoever aspires to the office of bishop (overseer) desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, (the book of Titus where the instructions are given again says 'above reproach'.) married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable etc ...verse 7 Morever, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that may not fall into the disgrace and the snare of the devil.
And lots more.
If the church actually followed the instructions God gave us for leaders/shepherds in the church, christianity would be very differet.
If outsiders don't respect a christian leader, it creates a bad example and witness of the church and those in it. Who wants to join a church run by an adulterer? Specifically one who knew better because he was a christian. One thing from the pulpit and a hand up someone elses skirt on the side. Do you think non-christians don't see this kind of hypocrisy as what it is, and judge the church accordingly? Yes, adultery and immorality can be forgiven, but to put that person back running a church? You've got to be kidding. It sets a horrible example.
When christian leaders are well thought of by outsiders, outsiders are more likely to trust christianity in general. When they arn't, it can be shunned and damned as a hypocritical cult and not suprisingly.
I think we have to apply a much higher standard to leaders who fail, but God can and does restore anyone.
I dont think Todd Bentley's sin went as far as murder and adultery, and yet he is far more despised than someone like King David from the postings I have seen here.
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