A Serious Question About Moral Failure and Ministry

Originally Posted by probinson

Interestingly enough, you left out this excellent model for church discipline;

Originally Posted by probinson

Galatians 6:1-5 (AMP)
BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also. Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]. For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself. But let every person carefully scrutinize and examine and test his own conduct and his own work. He can then have the personal satisfaction and joy of doing something commendable [in itself alone] without [resorting to] boastful comparison with his neighbor.

Hi Pete,



The majority of people on this forum, rush to the 'do no judge, lest you be judged' scriptures; so I just thought I'd remind people about the many discipline scriptures in the NT.

But please don't misunderstand my posting them. I'm fully aware of the grace scriptures, and take them just as seriously, usually more so, as the disciplinary ones.

Originally Posted by probinson

Could you explain what you believe the difference is between discipline and punishment?

Good question

I think punishment is often perceived to be more about vengence and wrath; whereas discipline is more about correction, and is ultimately concerned for the spirtual well being of the offender.

Originally Posted by probinson

Also, along with the idea that sin should be disciplined, how do you think the parable of the Prodigal son fits in with that? The Prodigal son left home and lived a horribly sinful lifestyle. Yet upon his return home, his father neither disciplined nor punished him for 1) completely wasting his inheritance or 2) living a sinful lifestyle for months on end. In fact, he did just the opposite, and threw him a party. While it's true his brother was pretty upset about that, the father didn't seem to be too worried about it...

Well let me ask you a question. In light of the Prodigal son story, where do you think the many discipline scriptures (see my previous post) fit in to the church?

But to answer your question. In the case of the Prodigal, there was genuine repentance in his heart and actions. I think church discipline should be used in those cases where there’s a need to bring about genuine repentance and a change in behavior.

It often requires wisdom to know when discipline is required. In the case of Bentley, I would have him kicked out of the church so fast he wouldn’t have time to say BAM!

peace,
Simon

so then YOU know what is in the man's heart Peter?

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D. L. Moody said, "I’d rather be able to pray than be a great preacher; Jesus Christ never taught his disciples how to preach, but only how to pray."

Originally Posted by ~RENEE~

so then YOU know what is in the man's heart Peter?

Hi Renee,

When you put "YOU" in capitals like that, it makes it sound like you think I should be the last person to have an opinion regarding Bentley's heart.

My opinion (which was asked for) is ventured with the full knowledge and understanding that I have not personally met Bentley.
But the OP was not expecting only people that have met Bentley to post opinions on this thread, was he?

Therefore, I am just as qualified as anyone else on this forum to have an opinion regarding Bentley's heart.

It's not like I tossed a coin in order to come up with my opinion. Bentley has left a huge and most horrendous trail of evidence regarding his heart.

Peace,
Simon

When you put "YOU" in capitals like that, it makes it sound like you think I should be the last person to have an opinion regarding Bentley's heart.

reading peoples minds now?

Actually NO Peter my thought is only GOD truly knows someones heart. And for one to claim they know anothers heart specialy ifen they don't even know the person at all well then they appear to be putting themselves up equal to GOD.

So in this post you appear to be saying that you DO know his heart even though you don't know him.

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D. L. Moody said, "I’d rather be able to pray than be a great preacher; Jesus Christ never taught his disciples how to preach, but only how to pray."

Fair enough.

Thanks. I thought so too.

Well, I'm not sure my children would agree with you. When I discipline my children, they are being "punished" because they have to go to bed early. Now I can assure you that my "punishment" has nothing to do with vengeance and wrath against my children, but it is most certainly a "punishment", or if you prefer, a consequence, or "penalty", of their actions. Seems a bit semantic to me.

I think the church has largely adopted a wordly definition of "discipline", and thus brought with it the baggage of a fear of punishment. The church lacks "perfect Love", because perfect Love casts out fear;

1 John 4:18 (NIV)
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Now the Bible is clear that there are times we must just leave people to their own devices, but I believe that church is way too quick to jump to that resolution.

I think I'd have to disagree with you there. The Prodigal ran out of money. He found himself eating with pigs, which is what caused him to say, (my paraphrase) "If I go home, I'll eat better than this" (Luke 15:17-19). There really is nothing that indicates in his heart or his actions that he was genuinely repentant for what happened. Everything leading up to this plan seems to indicate that it was nothing more than a premeditated plan to deal with his hunger. To use the vernacular of the day, he seemed more upset that he ran out of money and had no food than he was genuinely repentant for his actions.

Yet his father ran to and embraced his son was he was still a long way off. IOW, the father knew NOTHING of the son's repentance, and he still chose to Love him.

Further still, the father gave his son a ring for his finger (Luke 15:22), which almost assuredly gave him the authority to make financial transactions. Seems an odd thing to give to someone so soon after he had just frittered away his entire inheritance. But that's exactly what the father did.

It's true that the Prodigal faced consequences to his actions, but those consequences were of his own making. They were not a result of a "discipline" or "punishment" from his father. The very moment he returned home and his father embraced him, everyone of his consequences stopped.

I am sure you would have. Thankfully, our Father has just a bit more Love, compassion, grace and mercy than we do.

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"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean."

Too many Petes

that it folks let throw the one out that said "He was the chief of all sinners" Opps there goes 3/4 of the NT.. what right does a murder of people have.

Who is suggesting throw out Paul, Enoch?

Do you just invent the arguments on this list?!

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Paul speaks of the hidden man of the heart. That is the You that is in you. The visible you is not the You that puts you over. It is the unseen You who wins the fight. - E.W. Kenyon

Here’s the reason why prominent ministers are judged more severely (IMO):

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12)

1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. (James 3)

~Jim

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Punishment can be used in two senses. One is retribution; payback to the wrongdoer. God punishes in that sense as expressed in the scripture where it says He will repay.

That's not the sense of punishment that is expressed in correction by God for a Christian. The purpose of punishment/chastisement through church discipline is to bring us to repentance so that we are not condemned with the world:

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]

7 If[b] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Originally Posted by probinson

Thankfully, our Father has just a bit more Love, compassion, grace and mercy than we do.

Too many Christians don't understand that God's love is to chasten us. If He didn't love us, He would just let us go our way uncorrected, and end up destroyed.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.