John's is pretty logically his. The gospels and letters were copied out and circulated among the churches. The earliest example of a gospel found was the Rylands papyrus, dated to only about 25 years after John's death. Rylands Library Papyrus P52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He wrote, "This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true." (John 21:24)
Also, his style of writing and the phrases he uses are the same as those in his epistles, one only has to read them to recognise this.
also to jovia, do you think that we are better people? there are still thieves who steal repeatedly and other sinners.
i, for example, do believe that we are better people today than we were in the bronze age, but thats not because of Jesus, its because we as a society have been better able to discover what is right and wrong. if the day after jesus came back everything was rainbows and sunshine it would be different, but thats not how it was. it wasnt until the renaissance (the first rise of secularism) that things became markedly better for people.
It does seem like people are better today than in other periods in history, although it has to be said that the 20th century had a lot of evil. The thing with Jesus dying for us is that his death has the power to make anyone perfect who wants to be perfect. This opened up the way to heaven and God's presence. But this doesn't take effect in this life in a full way. It is only when Jesus returns that the people who want what he did for them on the cross will suddenly be changed into perfectly loving saints.
Until that time someone who trusts in Jesus' atonement for them will manifest that trust in his/her actions. So someone who trusts in this should show moral improvement over time.
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John's is pretty logically his. The gospels and letters were copied out and circulated among the churches. The earliest example of a gospel found was the Rylands papyrus, dated to only about 25 years after John's death. Rylands Library Papyrus P52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He wrote, "This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true." (John 21:24)
Also, his style of writing and the phrases he uses are the same as those in his epistles, one only has to read them to recognise this.
Johns gospel was written between 90-110 CE. it was written in what is now Turkey by early gnostic christians who were bitter about the jewish church kicking them out and calling them false prophets. this is evidenced both by the strong anti-semitism in john as well as a very mystic jesus (as opposed to mark, the first gospel that was written). P52 was hidden by the Essenes around twenty-five years after the book is written. this was shortly before they were destroyed. The letters may have been written by the author of John. or possibly a good psuedo-John (just as many of the books are psuedo-Paul). it is however clear, that they were not written by john the deciple, or john the baptist.
__________________ 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 peter 3:15)
Jovia: as i remarked, i also believe that people in general are better people than they were during the NT and especially the OT. what i argue is that the bible, or any religious book, is not the reason for this. the bible promotes many terrible acts such as mass genocide, slavery, sex slavery, might makes right mentality, and unjust legal systems. when we get knowledge (which god hates by the way) we become better people. this is in spite of, not because of religion.
__________________ 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 peter 3:15)
I think we get the idea of equality from the Bible, the idea that in some really fundamental way, everyone is equal. Rom 2:11 "There is no respect of person with God" because of the image of God. If you look at people from a physical point of view, no two people have equal abilities, skills, attributes, etc. So how else is everyone equal if it's not because of the image of God?
Also I'm guessing we get the idea of loving our enemies from the Bible. The idea of loving everyone regardless of what they have done. Matt 5:44 talks about this. Christopher Hitchens who is very anti-Christian says that this is a horrible, horrible doctrine, the idea of loving your enemies. I have a sense this indicates that most non-religious points of view probably wouldn't include this.
Another thing to remember is that some of the laws God gave the Israelites He gave because "of the hardness of [their] hearts" (Matt 19:8). They had an ancient near eastern culture with all of its problems and issues, and so God gave them the best laws that He knew would 'work' given how they were determined to act, that is, in ancient near eastern cultural ways.
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I think we get the idea of equality from the Bible, the idea that in some really fundamental way, everyone is equal. Rom 2:11 "There is no respect of person with God" because of the image of God. If you look at people from a physical point of view, no two people have equal abilities, skills, attributes, etc. So how else is everyone equal if it's not because of the image of God?
Also I'm guessing we get the idea of loving our enemies from the Bible. The idea of loving everyone regardless of what they have done. Matt 5:44 talks about this. Christopher Hitchens who is very anti-Christian says that this is a horrible, horrible doctrine, the idea of loving your enemies. I have a sense this indicates that most non-religious points of view probably wouldn't include this.
Another thing to remember is that some of the laws God gave the Israelites He gave because "of the hardness of [their] hearts" (Matt 19:8). They had an ancient near eastern culture with all of its problems and issues, and so God gave them the best laws that He knew would 'work' given how they were determined to act, that is, in ancient near eastern cultural ways.
we get equality from the bible? do i really need to point out all of the places where homosexuals and women are to be treated like dirt? not to mention how to treat your slaves. also, dont make excuses for bad behavior. genocide is wrong no matter the time or place. child rape is wrong no matter time or place. that doesnt work and the fact that you think it would is nearly offensive.
__________________ 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 peter 3:15)
we get equality from the bible? do i really need to point out all of the places where homosexuals and women are to be treated like dirt? not to mention how to treat your slaves.
As I understand it, slavery in the context of ancient Israel was more like a form of debt relief where someone could sell themselves into slavery if they couldn't pay for stuff, and they would get taken care of by the owner who had to treat them fairly. Here's a good link on the matter: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html
God loves homosexuals as much as he loves Jesus. There is no respect of persons with God, it says in Romans 2:11 and elsewhere. I personally don't know why God would forbid homosexual intercourse between two committed gay people, so I like the interpretations of Paul which say he was referring to something else. But even so, it does not change the fact God loves them.
also, dont make excuses for bad behavior. genocide is wrong no matter the time or place. child rape is wrong no matter time or place. that doesnt work and the fact that you think it would is nearly offensive.
I was referring to the Old Testament laws rather than historical events, so I must have misinterpreted. I was referring to the Old Testament laws and I was saying that God compromised because the ancient Israelites were less moral than we are and so the laws were designed to manage the ways in which they were less moral.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
does that sound like indentured servitude to you?
if your referring to laws and not events (as i was) how about these
if a man lies with man, kill them both (lev)
if you have a rebellious son, kill him (lev)
the penalty for apostasy is death (lev or deut i forget)
__________________ 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 peter 3:15)
Johns gospel was written between 90-110 CE. it was written in what is now Turkey by early gnostic christians who were bitter about the jewish church kicking them out and calling them false prophets.
A lot of very good historians and theologians would strongly disagree with the hypothesis that John's Gospel was written by gnostic Christians. It clearly represents a somewhat different tradition than most of the rest of the N.T., but most would say that it is still within "orthodoxy" (for lack of a better label). Sometime in the 90s, probably in Ephesus, most likely. Some very good historians and theologians do maintain either that was either written, or redacted from something written, by "the disciple Jesus most loved" in collaboration with his community.
this is evidenced both by the strong anti-semitism in john
Whether one finds John to be anti-semitic seems to depend on how one reads it.
Don't take hypotheses of certain sceptics as demonstrated fact.
__________________ Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us.
(++Desmond Tutu)
after reading john thoroughly, i can see some clearly anti-semetic overtones, especially when Jesus deals with the pharisees.
and you are correct at the end of the day John was declared orthodox, by both the Catholics and the gnostics, that does not mean however that john is not a strange book when compared to the synoptics and definitely has a much more mystical jesus than them
__________________ 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, (1 peter 3:15)
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