We believe that one of the perfect characteristics of God, is his perfect love for his children. He loves us so much that he will withhold nothing from us, if we will but follow the path that leads us there - which path is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through the grace of Christ, the faithful will be joint heirs with Christ. The Bible establishes that. The scriptures also make it completely clear that we will worship God forever, so our interpretation has to take the whole of the record into account. This sums up how we feel pretty well:
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev. 21:6-7)
We will be equal in power, might, and dominion - how else can we "inherit all things" as the Bible teaches? Yet, we will worship God and the Lamb forever. First among equals, so to speak.
Hi Vanhin,
I think that the verses that follow Revelation 21:6-7 help us to identify what was meant by "all things." Read in context, it sounds to me like it is speaking of inheriting the new heaven and new earth; the new Jerusalem that is being prepared.
Revelation 21
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
I don't see any indication that "all things" in this chapter was written in reference to having all power, might, and dominion. If you see otherwise in this chapter, would you please point it out? I also don't see a reference in this chapter to being made equal to God. I don't think that entering the place that Jesus is preparing for his bride makes one equal to God, just as in OT times the when high priest entered the Holy of Holies it did not make him equal to God.
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
I think that the verses that follow Revelation 21:6-7 help us to identify what was meant by "all things." Read in context, it sounds to me like it is speaking of inheriting the new heaven and new earth; the new Jerusalem that is being prepared.
Well, I can appreciate your interpretation of the scripture in question. I guess to that I would just offer that we interpret those scriptures to be about the final state of the righteous and the wicked, and a description of the earth after receiving the Celestial glory. And since we are exploring what Latter-day Saints believe about exaltation, take it for what it's worth.
That said, I thought it was curious that you left our verse 8. If you add verse 8 to the passages I quoted, it becomes clear that we are talking about the final state of both the righteous and the wicked in verses 6-8.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
In other words, it is all done. The end - of the earth and this experience as we know it.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
The righteous will be joint heirs with Christ, and will inherit "all things" - all things. We will be one with Christ, as he is with the Father (John 17:21-23).
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:6-8)
Classic definition of Hell.
The verses you quoted are a description of the earth after receiving it's Celestial Glory. It is the place the Lord has prepared for the righteous, which for the inhabitants of this earth, will be the new Celestialized Earth.
And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Matt. 5:5)
Be all that as it may, I am explaining to you that we do believe that those who are exalted will become equal to God in power, dominion, and might, yet we will worship God and the Lamb forever.
I don't post for LDS only. I provide quotes for non-LDS, too.
Hey Phoebe,
Nonetheless, I think it is reasonable to expect that what you post has something to do with what we are talking about. Right? Surely you had a point you were trying to make, or some reason why you posted those quotes. Maybe you could include some explanation as well, so that we can understand what you are getting at.
I would love to know. You don't have to explain, of course, they just seemed kind of random.
Nonetheless, I think it is reasonable to expect that what you post has something to do with what we are talking about. Right? Surely you had a point you were trying to make, or some reason why you posted those quotes. Maybe you could include some explanation as well, so that we can understand what you are getting at.
I would love to know. You don't have to explain, of course, they just seemed kind of random.
Regards,
Vanhin
I'm sorry that you think man's divinity within has nothing to do with man's being equal with divinity.
Well, I can appreciate your interpretation of the scripture in question. I guess to that I would just offer that we interpret those scriptures to be about the final state of the righteous and the wicked, and a description of the earth after receiving the Celestial glory. And since we are exploring what Latter-day Saints believe about exaltation, take it for what it's worth.
That said, I thought it was curious that you left our verse 8. If you add verse 8 to the passages I quoted, it becomes clear that we are talking about the final state of both the righteous and the wicked in verses 6-8.
There was no intended meaning by leaving out verse 8, just as there was no intended meaning by not posting the verses that preceeded your quote of verses 6 and 7. I will include those below, in case it helps to better understand the meaning of "all things" in verse 7.
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,“Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
I also believe that the chapter is speaking of the final resting places of the righteous (in Christ) and the wicked. However, what I was concerned with was what John meant when he wrote of inheriting all things. I will also add that I think that there is a lot of symbolism here in the description of what the saints (those in Christ) will inherit, however, the most important thing that they will inherit is being in the presence of God, and being in a right relationship with Him. I think that we can only imagine a place that is illuminated by the glory of God, filled with His presence.
Be all that as it may, I am explaining to you that we do believe that those who are exalted will become equal to God in power, dominion, and might, yet we will worship God and the Lamb forever.
That's what I believe.
Ok. Thank you for explaining.
That raises another question (or two). If God is (one day) your equal in power, might, and dominion, then why do you believe that He will be worthy of your worship? How will what what you are differ from what God is?
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
I also believe that the chapter is speaking of the final resting places of the righteous (in Christ) and the wicked. However, what I was concerned with was what John meant when he wrote of inheriting all things. I will also add that I think that there is a lot of symbolism here in the description of what the saints (those in Christ) will inherit, however, the most important thing that they will inherit is being in the presence of God, and being in a right relationship with Him. I think that we can only imagine a place that is illuminated by the glory of God, filled with His presence.
I agree with you on many of the points you make there. I think it is worth noting that the Bible has several more references to this doctrine. I picked that one, because it shows the proper relationship we will have with God, even when exalted.
For Latter-day Saints, we have the added clarification of modern revelation to help us understand what is meant by "all things", "joint heirs", "one with Christ", etc... For us that means that God has the power to exalt us "weaker intelligences", through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and make us like He is, and that is namely what the Plan of Salvation is all about. I have no doubt, that you and others may have a different understanding of the meaning of the following scriptures, but to us, the following represents our understanding of our Heavenly Father's plan:
..if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Rom. 8:17)
Ok. Thank you for explaining.
My pleasure.
That raises another question (or two). If God is (one day) your equal in power, might, and dominion, then why do you believe that He will be worthy of your worship? How will what what you are differ from what God is?
That is a very thought provoking question, for a couple of reasons. At first I was a little perplexed at the notion that being equal with God necessarily means He is no longer worthy of worship to begin with. And then it dawned on me that perhaps the reasons why you and I worship God are different. Now I don't want to assume the answer to that question, so I will let you elaborate - Why do you worship God? Or why is he worthy of worship, to you?
That is a very thought provoking question, for a couple of reasons. At first I was a little perplexed at the notion that being equal with God necessarily means He is no longer worthy of worship to begin with. And then it dawned on me that perhaps the reasons why you and I worship God are different. Now I don't want to assume the answer to that question, so I will let you elaborate - Why do you worship God? Or why is he worthy of worship, to you?
There are many reasons why I worship God, not just one. I will answer in more detail later when I have more time. One reason why I worship God is that He is so far above me, and so much more, than every created person or thing. For now, I hope that it will suffice to simply explain that I asked because I do not worship my peers. And if one is equal to God, then isn't He considered to be your peer?
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
Linear Mode
