I am Wesleyan and have been so for a little more than a year. I know some people don't consider Catholics to be Christian, but I do. I am not sure if this is even the right place for this question. I guess the issue is
that I chose to come to the Wesleyan church because my beliefs fit in with the teachings and also I was led there. My family is Catholic. Also, I cannot help but think of the years that so many were Catholic before other options became available in Christianity. Maybe I am just lost. Not sure if I am making much sense. My question is more or less what is the view on other Christian religions in the Wesleyan tradition? Thank you in advance.
Catholics are Christian, just as the Eastern Orthodox are, just as Anglicans are, just as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Methodist/Wesleyan/Nazarene churches are.
The reason some groups claim that they aren't is because of the fact that some points of Catholic theology are alien to their worldviews, and also because said beliefs are genuinely misunderstood (and such misunderstandings are propagated over and over again by those that refuse to acknowledge that they might be wrong). There's also a lot of arrogance and pride in there too - I don't see how ignoring almost 1500 years, or more, of Christian history to advance their own POV is anything other than pure hubris. You might disagree with a Calvinist over the idea of predestination, but you still recognize him as a fellow Christian. Understanding Catholic theology from the Catholic point of view doesn't mean agreeing with it, but it is still very clearly Christian.
Now, I'm not going to deny that some of the traditional doctrinal statements in Wesleyan churches might have particularly anti-Catholic wording and sentiment, but mostly these things were because of how political those disagreements often were in the 1700s and 1800s. The view taken by the congregations these days have considerably softened, although it is still a wound.
Now, you might get some very different answers if you ask about some of the churches that fall into the Restorationist category; unlike Protestantism, which sought to reform the existing churches, Restorationists view themselves as reviving a pure form of Christianity that was lost early on, usually when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. However, intentions aside, some groups are generally orthodox, others are very much not orthodox. Restorationist churches include Seventh Day Adventism, multiple 'Church of Christ' variants, and the non-denom movement in many cases, but they also officially include Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (i.e. Mormonism). Those last three are very often not considered Christian, regardless of which mainline denomination you ask.
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There are christians in all denominations. How they live out their lifes determines if they are truly christian in God's eyes. What do their actions say?
__________________ Sola Scriptura is Eternal Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, 2 Peter 1:20. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (October 11, 1798). Roe vs. Wade - 45 million **Proverbs 6:16-17 - states that there are seven things that are an abomination to the Lord; one of them is the shedding of innocentblood. The B.O. Must Go! Huckabee in 2012
I guess the issue is
that I chose to come to the Wesleyan church because my beliefs fit in with the teachings and also I was led there. My family is Catholic. Also, I cannot help but think of the years that so many were Catholic before other options became available in Christianity. Maybe I am just lost. Not sure if I am making much sense. My question is more or less what is the view on other Christian religions in the Wesleyan tradition? Thank you in advance.
Coming as well from the Catholic Church to the Wesleyan faith, I can say that Catholics ARE Christians. We have to think that clergy =/= churchgoers. Some things that the "Church" says doesn't line up with what is accepted theology (Mariology, veneration of the saints, etc.) but within the people I've seen better Christians there than I would see at my own church. So you're not lost, there are good Christians there.
Originally Posted by Qyöt27
Now, you might get some very different answers if you ask about some of the churches that fall into the Restorationist category; unlike Protestantism, which sought to reform the existing churches, Restorationists view themselves as reviving a pure form of Christianity that was lost early on, usually when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. However, intentions aside, some groups are generally orthodox, others are very much not orthodox. Restorationist churches include Seventh Day Adventism, multiple 'Church of Christ' variants, and the non-denom movement in many cases, but they also officially include Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (i.e. Mormonism). Those last three are very often not considered Christian, regardless of which mainline denomination you ask.
I don't view those three as Christians because their views do not line up with what I consider "Christian" (i.e. do not follow the Nicene Creed or have a sort of commonality with other denominations). But of course, that's just me.
__________________ "When I speak, I don’t speak as a Democrat, or a Republican... I speak as a victim of America’s so-called democracy. You and I have never seen democracy; all we’ve seen is hypocrisy. When we open our eyes today and look around America, we see America not through the eyes of someone who have — who has enjoyed the fruits of Americanism, we see America through the eyes of someone who has been the victim of Americanism. We don’t see any American dream; we’ve experienced only the American nightmare. We haven’t benefited from America’s democracy; we’ve only suffered from America’s hypocrisy. And the generation that’s coming up now can see it and are not afraid to say it."
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ESTJ
My best friend and the srongest prayer warrior I know was Catholic, attended the Methodist church for about 8 years and then re-joined the Catholic church. She is was and always will be a Christian.
It should also be noted that in the original Methodist societies members from all walks of Christianity were welcomed and became leaders of small groups while still being active with in their home congregations. The idea wasn't for them to leave their church, but to add to their faith.
__________________ "If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." Galations 5:15
"...a vice does not lose its nature, though it becomes ever so fashionable" -John Wesley
"To study too much in retreat can become an inexcusable indulgence. It behooves us to share what we have learned, to practice in administering to others what we have gathered from our experience with books" -the Brother Superior of the Glauxian Brothers of the Northern Kingdoms
I grew up in a Catholic house and I've noticed and learned two things about this question:
1) Catholicism is Christianity (one denomination anyway)
2) Few Catholics (that I've come across) are actually Christians
Catholicism, when you dig down into it, believes in salvation by faith alone through grace alone. However, they also emphasize what your life should look like. Which is good, no doubt, but the way the church goes about it almost presents it as most important.
I have, honestly, met only one Catholic, other than a priest, who told me that salvation is faith alone through grace alone....and that person is now studying to enter the priesthood...kind of interesting...but anyway. Every other Catholic I've talked to about this (and coming from a family which is largely Catholic and an area that is largely Catholic I've talked to many) - holds the belief that if you believe in God and live a "good" life, you will go to heaven. I get the answer of "God knows my heart" a LOT ...and to be sure He does.
However, the lifestyle that comes out from this kind of thinking is inevitably a life that looks like a lot of the world's lives with some rituals, sacraments, and what not thrown in.
In my house growing up, the Catechism was referred to and opened more than the Bible. We had that one big family Bible that looks like an antique and it was always sitting in an out of the way spot and most of the time had gathered dust. I only heard the stories of Moses, Noah, and Jesus growing up in Sunday school. ( I didn't hear the story of David and Goliath or Daniel until I was in late elementary years and watched Veggie Tales with a cousin). Everything else I learned in Sunday School was about the saints and the rest were rules. When I would ask a question about something, I was told the teaching relative to that - not where the teaching comes from. I was never pointed to the Bible for answers, and I didn't have my own til a friend gave me one in high school
I'm not trying to say that learning and hearing the stories of those who are faithful to God is a bad thing - far from it - but when those and a list of no no's become more taught than Bible stories...When the rule book and what the pope says becomes more prominent in your heart and mind than God's book and what God says - problems come.
Also - I'm not by any means saying that this is the way it happens for all Catholics, but this has been my experience. And from what I've heard, similar experiences are common among those who grow up in a Catholic home.
Anyway - all of this to say - that if Catholics are willing to get down to the nitty gritty of beliefs, then yes, they could very well be Christians. Otherwise they are simply going with the flow, and most likely are not Christians themselves.
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-Mother Theresa
Those who believe they believe in God but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God Himself.
- Madaleine L'Engle
In every victory let it be said of me, my source of strength, my source of hope is Christ alone.
- In Christ Alone
I am Wesleyan and have been so for a little more than a year. I know some people don't consider Catholics to be Christian, but I do. I am not sure if this is even the right place for this question. I guess the issue is
that I chose to come to the Wesleyan church because my beliefs fit in with the teachings and also I was led there. My family is Catholic. Also, I cannot help but think of the years that so many were Catholic before other options became available in Christianity. Maybe I am just lost. Not sure if I am making much sense. My question is more or less what is the view on other Christian religions in the Wesleyan tradition? Thank you in advance.
Originally Posted by Qyöt27
Catholics are Christian, just as the Eastern Orthodox are, just as Anglicans are, just as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Methodist/Wesleyan/Nazarene churches are.
The reason some groups claim that they aren't is because of the fact that some points of Catholic theology are alien to their worldviews, and also because said beliefs are genuinely misunderstood (and such misunderstandings are propagated over and over again by those that refuse to acknowledge that they might be wrong). There's also a lot of arrogance and pride in there too - I don't see how ignoring almost 1500 years, or more, of Christian history to advance their own POV is anything other than pure hubris. You might disagree with a Calvinist over the idea of predestination, but you still recognize him as a fellow Christian. Understanding Catholic theology from the Catholic point of view doesn't mean agreeing with it, but it is still very clearly Christian.
Now, I'm not going to deny that some of the traditional doctrinal statements in Wesleyan churches might have particularly anti-Catholic wording and sentiment, but mostly these things were because of how political those disagreements often were in the 1700s and 1800s. The view taken by the congregations these days have considerably softened, although it is still a wound.
Now, you might get some very different answers if you ask about some of the churches that fall into the Restorationist category; unlike Protestantism, which sought to reform the existing churches, Restorationists view themselves as reviving a pure form of Christianity that was lost early on, usually when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. However, intentions aside, some groups are generally orthodox, others are very much not orthodox. Restorationist churches include Seventh Day Adventism, multiple 'Church of Christ' variants, and the non-denom movement in many cases, but they also officially include Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (i.e. Mormonism). Those last three are very often not considered Christian, regardless of which mainline denomination you ask.
Originally Posted by broken_one
Coming as well from the Catholic Church to the Wesleyan faith, I can say that Catholics ARE Christians. We have to think that clergy =/= churchgoers. Some things that the "Church" says doesn't line up with what is accepted theology (Mariology, veneration of the saints, etc.) but within the people I've seen better Christians there than I would see at my own church. So you're not lost, there are good Christians there.
I don't view those three as Christians because their views do not line up with what I consider "Christian" (i.e. do not follow the Nicene Creed or have a sort of commonality with other denominations). But of course, that's just me.
Originally Posted by Marycita
I grew up in a Catholic house and I've noticed and learned two things about this question:
1) Catholicism is Christianity (one denomination anyway)
2) Few Catholics (that I've come across) are actually Christians
Catholicism, when you dig down into it, believes in salvation by faith alone through grace alone. However, they also emphasize what your life should look like. Which is good, no doubt, but the way the church goes about it almost presents it as most important.
I have, honestly, met only one Catholic, other than a priest, who told me that salvation is faith alone through grace alone....and that person is now studying to enter the priesthood...kind of interesting...but anyway. Every other Catholic I've talked to about this (and coming from a family which is largely Catholic and an area that is largely Catholic I've talked to many) - holds the belief that if you believe in God and live a "good" life, you will go to heaven. I get the answer of "God knows my heart" a LOT ...and to be sure He does.
However, the lifestyle that comes out from this kind of thinking is inevitably a life that looks like a lot of the world's lives with some rituals, sacraments, and what not thrown in.
In my house growing up, the Catechism was referred to and opened more than the Bible. We had that one big family Bible that looks like an antique and it was always sitting in an out of the way spot and most of the time had gathered dust. I only heard the stories of Moses, Noah, and Jesus growing up in Sunday school. ( I didn't hear the story of David and Goliath or Daniel until I was in late elementary years and watched Veggie Tales with a cousin). Everything else I learned in Sunday School was about the saints and the rest were rules. When I would ask a question about something, I was told the teaching relative to that - not where the teaching comes from. I was never pointed to the Bible for answers, and I didn't have my own til a friend gave me one in high school
I'm not trying to say that learning and hearing the stories of those who are faithful to God is a bad thing - far from it - but when those and a list of no no's become more taught than Bible stories...When the rule book and what the pope says becomes more prominent in your heart and mind than God's book and what God says - problems come.
Also - I'm not by any means saying that this is the way it happens for all Catholics, but this has been my experience. And from what I've heard, similar experiences are common among those who grow up in a Catholic home.
Anyway - all of this to say - that if Catholics are willing to get down to the nitty gritty of beliefs, then yes, they could very well be Christians. Otherwise they are simply going with the flow, and most likely are not Christians themselves.
I heard Ben Witherington III write (The Problem with Evangelical Theology), "It is in your distinctions where you are the least faithful." It appears the more one looks to find ways to show their distinctions, the more one has to distort and mis-use proper exegetical/hermeneutical techniques. Also, the more distinctions the more problematic the belief system is going to be, and belief systems with more distinctions compared to evangelical (e.g., Protestant, Orthodox) Christians are going to be more problematic. I was in a belief with a tremendous amount of distinctions compared to Evangelical and Wesleyan, and the distinctions fell through the cracks.