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  #11  
Old 3rd November 2009, 07:34 PM
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Wow, this man is an equal opportunity bigot.

He has lambasted all the 2008 Presidential candidates:

Hitchens would go on to support Barack Obama, calling McCain "senile", and his choice of running mate Sarah Palin "absurd", calling Palin a "pathological liar" and a "national disgrace".
Well, that's just mean. I don't think McCain is "senile," although I think he was manipulated by his party.

He's also written about:

Three figures — Bill Clinton, Henry Kissinger, and Mother Teresa — were the targets of three separate full length texts, No One Left to Lie To: The Triangulations of William Jefferson Clinton, The Trial of Henry Kissinger, and The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice. Hitchens has also written book-length biographical essays about Thomas Jefferson (Thomas Jefferson: Author of America), George Orwell (Why Orwell Matters) and Thomas Paine (Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man": A Biography). However, the majority of Hitchens's critiques take the form of short opinion pieces, some of the more notable being his critiques of: Jerry Falwell,[65] George Galloway,[66] Mel Gibson,[67] Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama,[68] Michael Moore,[69] Daniel Pipes,[70] Ronald Reagan,[71] Jesse Helms,[72], and Cindy Sheehan.
Mother Theresa is in some good company (and some not so good company.)

From what I remember, he had said she was too media hungry and manipulative in the past...but she wasn't doing it for herself.
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  #12  
Old 4th November 2009, 02:00 PM
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This reminds me of an old t-shirt popular at my school for a while:

God is dead.
- Nietzsche

Nietzsche is dead.
- God
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  #13  
Old 4th November 2009, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by isshinwhat View Post
Not to threadjack, but what then are we to make of Papal statements like these?
I tend to be wary these days of any quote that makes use of ellipses, especially if it's something relating to teachings of the Catholic Church. So many arguments against Catholicism are founded upon strawmen which are themselves built upon out-of-context quote mining.

In this particular case, I doubt that the overall message would change even in context. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see praise of certain socialist principles. The Church's social teaching has always leaned more towards socialism, so clearly there is a bit more to those Papal statements than what the quotes initially lead one to believe.

And I agree, no one in their right mind would make statements like those made toward Mother Teresa. May God soften his heart. What a conversion his would be...
Indeed.
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  #14  
Old 4th November 2009, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
This reminds me of an old t-shirt popular at my school for a while:
Thanks for the laugh! God will always have the last one, though.
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  #15  
Old 4th November 2009, 02:52 PM
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I find Hitchens to be a pompous loudmouth on any topic he discusses.

Hitchens Watch
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  #16  
Old 4th November 2009, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Michie View Post
To me, he seems almost mentally ill. His rants are not normal.
I think he's sloshed most of the time.
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  #17  
Old 4th November 2009, 03:50 PM
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what are the fundamental reasons why Catholicism is not compatible with socialism?

(I'm sure I could get an answer somewhere haha, but anyway).
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  #18  
Old 4th November 2009, 04:08 PM
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My new avatar...
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  #19  
Old 4th November 2009, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Lite View Post
I tend to be wary these days of any quote that makes use of ellipses, especially if it's something relating to teachings of the Catholic Church. So many arguments against Catholicism are founded upon strawmen which are themselves built upon out-of-context quote mining.
Originally Posted by Dark_Lite View Post

In this particular case, I doubt that the overall message would change even in context. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see praise of certain socialist principles. The Church's social teaching has always leaned more towards socialism, so clearly there is a bit more to those Papal statements than what the quotes initially lead one to believe.


From Quadragesimo Anno (May 15, 1931)

120. If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.


I agree that inasmuch as there is some truth to the tenets of Socialism, Socialism itself is not compatible with the Catholic Faith.

However:
113. The other section, which has kept the name Socialism, is surely more moderate. It not only professes the rejection of violence but modifies and tempers to some degree, if it does not reject entirely, the class struggle and the abolition of private ownership. One might say that, terrified by its own principles and by the conclusions drawn therefrom by Communism, Socialism inclines toward and in a certain measure approaches the truths which Christian tradition has always held sacred; for it cannot be denied that its demands at times come very near those that Christian reformers of society justly insist upon.

114. For if the class struggle abstains from enmities and mutual hatred, it gradually changes into an honest discussion of differences founded on a desire for justice, and if this is not that blessed social peace which we all seek, it can and ought to be the point of departure from which to move forward to the mutual cooperation of the Industries and Professions. So also the war declared on private ownership, more and more abated, is being so restricted that now, finally, not the possession itself of the means of production is attacked but rather a kind of sovereignty over society which ownership has, contrary to all right, seized and usurped. For such sovereignty belongs in reality not to owners but to the public authority. If the foregoing happens, it can come even to the point that imperceptibly these ideas of the more moderate socialism will no longer differ from the desires and demands of those who are striving to remold human society on the basis of Christian principles. For certain kinds of property, it is rightly contended, ought to be reserved to the State since they carry with them a dominating power so great that cannot without danger to the general welfare be entrusted to private individuals.

115. Such just demands and desire have nothing in them now which is inconsistent with Christian truth, and much less are they special to Socialism. Those who work solely toward such ends have, therefore, no reason to become socialists.

116. Yet let no one think that all the socialist groups or factions that are not communist have, without exception, recovered their senses to this extent either in fact or in name. For the most part they do not reject the class struggle or the abolition of ownership, but only in some degree modify them. Now if these false principles are modified and to some extent erased from the program, the question arises, or rather is raised without warrant by some, whether the principles of Christian truth cannot perhaps be also modified to some degree and be tempered so as to meet Socialism half-way and, as it were, by a middle course, come to agreement with it. There are some allured by the foolish hope that socialists in this way will be drawn to us. A vain hope! Those who want to be apostles among socialists ought to profess Christian truth whole and entire, openly and sincerely, and not connive at error in any way. If they truly wish to be heralds of the Gospel, let them above all strive to show to socialists that socialist claims, so far as they are just, are far more strongly supported by the principles of Christian faith and much more effectively promoted through the power of Christian charity.

117. But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.
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  #20  
Old 4th November 2009, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bug View Post
what are the fundamental reasons why Catholicism is not compatible with socialism?

(I'm sure I could get an answer somewhere haha, but anyway).
It might take you a while to read these, but they will flesh the fundamental reasons why much better then I can:

Centesimus annus - Ioannes Paulus PP. II - Encyclical Letter (1991.05.01)

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUADR.HTM

RERUM NOVARUM

The reasons have mainly to do with the denial of rightful ownership of property, the lack of respect for the human individual, and the violation of subsidiarity that are inherent to Socialism.

For example, from Centesimus Annus by Pope John Paul II:

In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100

By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.
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