Encouraging dads to be more involved..how?

overit · #1 3rd November 2009, 05:37 PM

I didn't know where the best place to post this was...but I know there's more men in this area, some re-married that might be able to share their views.

My exh is one of the proverbial "slacker dads"....in addition to how I was treated, he happens to fall in the "narcissistic" spectrum....so he really cares a lot about himself, rarely thinking of others, even his own children.
I guess I'm wanting to know as I explain the situation a bit....am I just out of luck, let it go and do my best with them as I do now or if there's any point or reason to keep encouraging involvement? Are they better off w/out much of him around?

In the last 6 years-he's missed nearly 20 months of time he had to visit with his sons. He's also missed almost half of those years in paying support. His recent stunt is 3 months w/out paying. Now my ex does not have a very high payment to make.. but that payment at least made things liveable. I pay a mortgage (not an expensive house-very modest) and car..but the kids eat more, they need clothes, hair cuts, etc...I do not spoil them and we live frugally. And really he's just lazy he chooses consantly to quit jobs, or works sporadically or under the table. He lives only 30 mins away from them-yet seems to be even the "every other wknd" is much of an effort for him. He goes into financial disaster and can barely afford anything-NOT because of the economy but because at 43 yrs old he chooses to not improve his situation and hold steady jobs (does not like authority, bosses, people "telling him what to do", etc..you get the picture).

Over the years-even when he hasn't contributed I've still encouraged him to spend more time with his boys-recently as my kids are now 8 and 10 I've reiterated they are at an age that they need more involvement...yet he continues to make excuses..my car broke and I'm using someone's borrowed car, my jobs, my finances, lack of vacation time (yet when he does have vacation he chose to vacation w/out his kids and travel to see his family out of the country or w/his now ex gf).

He's missed games, school events, conferences, special Holidays, never took the weeks in summer given to him, or the alternated spring/winter breaks.....always some excuse. Yet when you call him on it he gets defensive and says it's NOT because I don't want to....umm..ok.

My 10 yr old is starting to get more of those wonderful testosterone surges...he's also beginning to verbalize more that he's discontent w/his father...thigns like the other dads are better, my dad doesn't do things like that with me, etc...so I know he's hurting badly.

Yet when his wknd is here they never want to go with him....he rarely calls in between his wknds and when he does the kids dont' want to talk (i mostly ensure they do anyway). So it's this dysfunctional back/forth...he's not involved and when he does call/take them they don't want to go so he gets discouraged that the kids don't like him. It's heartbreaking.

At least they get to see their grandfather (my dad) on a regular basis-my brother was more involved but recently married so we haven't seen him as much. They're starting bskbtball soon and the coaches are always great. And though I've been single and had some relationships through the years I haven't found a "keeper'-nor did I want to-too busy healing from the past and also providing stability and full focused parent to them. So I haven't had any of my dates around my kids at all. My romantic life was kept seperate from my life with them because I felt it was the best thing for them.

Now I"m finally getting out there again...I'm in a relationship that's started very slowly-been 5 months and just the other day my kids and his girl met for the first time...we still dont' know where this is headed but I do know this man is a lot more involved in his childs life then mine is...and it does not deter him that I have my boys. He knows the story w/my ex and lack of involvement also.

My ex will constantly threaten to go back home to his country/family since he "can't make it here". I keep telling him whatever you do-you need to keep in mind first and foremost your sons and their well-being and their needs. My kids often tell me "why did you marry dad-we wanted another dad". Of course I tell them he loves them-I have never bad mouthed him-I always encourge them to go see him and spend time...I also now that they are older open up more and reassure their feelings-and say I know he's not perfect, I now you wish he were someone else then he is-but he is who he is-and he does love you. I'm sorry it upsets you. I can only validate their feelings while walkign that thin line of not adding to their grief but not discounting what they are now clearly seeing and feeling. I tell them well if I hadn't married him I wouldn't have you guys-and what on earth would I do if I didn't have you two handsome, wonderful boys. My whole family is careful not to badmouth him...my mom will often say you guys are such handsome kids....just like your dad is handsome....stuff like that. It's hard on all of us. I don't know-I realize this is so long and rambling, just venting I guess or looking for some suggestions.

I know my ex is misogynistic..so he won't listen to me or my mom. I keep thinking my dad or my brother needs to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with him and lay things out man to man. It's just so heartbreaking.

The good thing is this new relationship I have has potential....they also are eccstatic about the prospect of me seeing someone/dating...as they say "they want a stepdad". Personally I do not know that I ever want to remarry (for another post), but would like a steady relationship w/someone and might even consider living with someone-just not sure I can do the "paper" thing-but let's try to leave that aside for a moment.....basically they need another male role model in their life and I would like the companionship. BUT I"m treading slow-as I don't want to mesh our lives w/our kids until it's absolutely committed...they don't need the extra pain of having someone and then not.

On the other hand they never liked the girl my ex was seeing..I think they feel it's disloyal to me-or they blame him for the divorce, or it's because their relationship w/me is very secure so they know if I meet someone they are still my priority-they aren't threatened. Their relationship w/him is so distant that another person may create more distance...not to mention his previous relationship was angst ridden and not healthy-that's the only relationships they've seen him have-hence their apprehension. He doesn't keep a revolving door w/them....doesn't drink or do drugs around them and they go to church on ocassion....so it could be worse I guess. Sighhhh....just sitting here upset about this whole thing and not sure how to proceed.

Macx · #2 3rd November 2009, 07:48 PM

My brother-in-law is still with my sister but sounds like the same kind of cad. A while back we had a "come to Jesus" with him . . . . since then he has been trying to commit suicide. He'd rather die than live up to his responsibilities. It is terrible, but some men are like that.

McScribe · #3 3rd November 2009, 10:10 PM

It is terrible. It's very hard to get someone wrapped up in themselves to care about other people.

A few thoughts:
1. Does he genuinely respect your dad or any other guy in your family? If he doesn't really then a Come to Jesus moment may not work.

2. It sounds like you would like to move on but are hesitant. I would suggest letting whether or not someone genuinely loves and respects you and your kids, whether this person can hold a steady job and be a decent person with some real self respect be a GOOD thing to wait for and make sure of.

3. You cannot really expect someone to change for you unless they want to. Acceptance and forgiveness don't necessarily condone behavior, but they do free you from having to judge and control other people, and also free you to move on.

I would also suggest that you really pray to God about all of these concerns. The way I often pray is to do this:

"Lord, I have XYZ problems. They really bother me because ABC. I feel like they won't go away no matter what I do and I really need your help. Nevertheless I know you are my God, that you are good and that your mercy and generosity are wonderful. So in spite of how bad it all is right now I trust you and believe in you."

This really does help. It isn't randomly trusting in God for some kind of genie in the bottle solution. It's priming your spirit to receive wisdom, insight, courage and faith. I really encourage you to do this. I'm sorry for what you and your children are going through and I will pray for you.

Hosannainthehighest · #4 4th November 2009, 05:09 AM

I have always been honest with my kids about the behaviour of adults. Because that takes the burden OFF them and leaves them free to get on and be kids without wondering why things aren't as they should be, and making up stuff in their innocent child minds that ends with them feeling bad about themselves.
Your kids aren't silly, they know something's up with their Dad, be honest, tell them he's not living as he should and that it's not their fault it's his responsibility.
Also stop trying to get him to be a Dad, if he really wants to he will...keep your kids informed, they already know he doesnt want to bother, so there's no point sugar coating it for them, they're better off to know that he's not a responsible man and he's the one that's missing out and in the meantime they can be happy.
Are you in a church? involve men to encourage your boys that are good role models, let their male teachers know that you want them to be encouraged etc...put your efforts into the men that ARE in your boys lives...always be open and honest with them, you can do this without being nasty about their Dad, kids are amazingly intelligent when given half the chance.
My kids have seen and heard alot in their lives, but i've always treated them with respect and never tried to make things sound better than what they are, i've always told them the truth and encouraged them to remember who they are and they have worth no matter what or how anyone else lets them down. I have many comments about how well adjusted my kids are so I think that speaks for how i've treated them.
Another thing you could do with your kids is let them know the truth about their Dad but then get them praying for him, that way they aren't burdened they're learning to rely on God and they are free to grow-up guilt free.
if it were me, i'd stop contacting the ex about anything, he knows what's what and if you're busy worrying about it, he doesn't have to.

TravisD · #5 4th November 2009, 05:50 AM

My father was the same way. My parents divorced when I was 11 and he slowly drifted out of my life at that point. My mother made every effort to fulfill the role of mom and dad. I'm pretty sure that in my experience she suffered a lot more than I did. Sure my dad stepped out of my life, but my mother picked up the slack. She was always there for me and put me first. She prayed every night and God helped her through it.

It's a shame your ex cannot see the joy in having children and being a big part of their lives. You cannot change him. He is lacking something inside that only God can give. All you can do is be there for your children and rely on the Lord for wisdom and guidance.

Autumnleaf · #6 4th November 2009, 06:30 AM

You don't seem to like him and his kids don't want to go with him on the weekends. Why would he want to see you or them, especially if he is narcissistic like you say? To catch flies you need a bit of honey, put the vinegar away.

Conservativation · #7 4th November 2009, 07:40 AM

It is terrible, but some men are like that.....MacX

Yes they are, some PEOPLE are.
The thing is, there can be a subtle PAS set in, almost not detectable, but very impactful for the kids, based even on frustrations you show when he does mess up. If the kids dont want to be with dad, sorry, but YOU need to work on the kids in that area as much as dad does, and since they are with you way more, realize that even the involvement of a man as bad as you say this one is is netter than NO involvement, and even better than NO involvement that includes "substituto-dad". With all his shortcomings, im takin the dads side here and saying, OK, the problem is identified, its real, he may well be all the bad things, Ive no idea...BUT, the solution is not for you to try and change dad...you couldnt do that married, you sure cant do it now. The solution is to change everybody else. Cease any and all even rolling of eyes, stop assuming he will fail (even if he does), speak highly of him in front of kids, and in the end, you will know you did best you could. You may say you are doing these things, i respectfully submit that in the frutration of your post, rightly so i add, its hard to imagine that doesnt come through, and Im not calling YOU bad or mean, Im just being blunt pragmatic....
In these cases you can also run the danger of later in life the whole dynamic changing. its not rare at all, that for some reason, young adult kids gravitate back to dad, even a bad dad, as they THINK they have things figured out in life. It hurts mom when that happens.

Just please do the right thing, which is to maintain his involvement as it is, or increase it by biting tongue. If he doesnt abuse them he is then therefore STILL their primary father AND father figure.
(ahora mismo yo se por que to puedes escriber en espanol no? De qual pais es el?)

McScribe · #8 4th November 2009, 10:00 AM

Some good points being made here by others. On a precise addition to what Conservation said, one way you can do this without really condoning the bad things is to uphold the good things. This does NOT mean that it's cool to forget child spport or being punctual or whatever. It means just not letting the bitterness overwhelm you by doing things like:

1. Saying "Have a great time with your Dad."

2. Giving him updates on how the kids are doing, offering the chance to be interested whether he responds or not.

3. Encouraging them to write cards or give gifts on Father's Day, birthday, Christmas, etc.

4. Now and then offering a suggestion in a pleasant way. It doesn't have to be hypocrisy--think of it as the way you might now and then offer anyone a solution. "One of the kids has a concert at the school--I might not be able to go but I wondered if you'd like to." "Would you be interested in attending some of the soccer games this season?"

Also remember that if he doesn't respond much to this kind of thing you will nevertheless have acted to the best of your ability. Being love, remember, doesn't mean that you have to like the people you are being loving towards. It means being as good as it is possible to be. So yeah, this is a person who takes advantage of you. You don't want to be emotionally vulnerable with him or let him push you around.

Think of encouragement in this case as encouraging anyone with some problems. You know that homeless guy is an alcoholic, so instead of giving him money you make sure he has food, you try to help him get to a shelter, you pray for him. One of your children is say going through a selfish/rude phase. You enourage the good things and discourage the bad.

Macx · #9 4th November 2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Conservativation

It is terrible, but some men are like that.....MacX

Yes they are, some PEOPLE are.
The thing is, there can be a subtle PAS set in, almost not detectable, but very impactful for the kids, based even on frustrations you show when he does mess up. If the kids dont want to be with dad, sorry, but YOU need to work on the kids in that area as much as dad does, and since they are with you way more, realize that even the involvement of a man as bad as you say this one is is netter than NO involvement, and even better than NO involvement that includes "substituto-dad". With all his shortcomings, im takin the dads side here and saying, OK, the problem is identified, its real, he may well be all the bad things, Ive no idea...BUT, the solution is not for you to try and change dad...you couldnt do that married, you sure cant do it now. The solution is to change everybody else. Cease any and all even rolling of eyes, stop assuming he will fail (even if he does), speak highly of him in front of kids, and in the end, you will know you did best you could. You may say you are doing these things, i respectfully submit that in the frutration of your post, rightly so i add, its hard to imagine that doesnt come through, and Im not calling YOU bad or mean, Im just being blunt pragmatic....
In these cases you can also run the danger of later in life the whole dynamic changing. its not rare at all, that for some reason, young adult kids gravitate back to dad, even a bad dad, as they THINK they have things figured out in life. It hurts mom when that happens.

Just please do the right thing, which is to maintain his involvement as it is, or increase it by biting tongue. If he doesnt abuse them he is then therefore STILL their primary father AND father figure.
(ahora mismo yo se por que to puedes escriber en espanol no? De qual pais es el?)

A good solid post Con. I think what I was trying, too round aboutly to say, is that there is a point where one can recognize the resignation, to willfully shirk the duties of being a man. My brother in law is an extreme case (a man with one kidney conducting a race between stroke and heart attack for cause of death, nearly disabled by his gluttony and likely to die before time to plant tomatoes next year. He is literally using McDonalds as the instrument of his suicide). My father and I took him out to the garage and had a man to men with him. Since then, he has been working hard at dying instead of working hard at trying. Resignation. He has decided to not "man up". Once you recognize that level of resignation, it is time to start thinking about exit strategy. In our case we are working on where to house my sister, nephews and niece.

overit · #10 4th November 2009, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Autumnleaf

You don't seem to like him and his kids don't want to go with him on the weekends. Why would he want to see you or them, especially if he is narcissistic like you say? To catch flies you need a bit of honey, put the vinegar away.

Of course I don't like him, he abused me, he neglects his kids. The reason they don't like to see him is because he's uninvolved....so rather then HIM breaking the cycle by starting more contact (even if it's initially rejected) until they come around. Who's the father, who is the child?

Also-I may vent here, or with my family. I (unlike him) still treat him with respect. When he comes to pick up kids-or on the ocasion he does come to an event of the kids we are actually very civil and conversational with eachother. So no...I don't use the vinegar approach.