Many people do not grasp the idea of inspiration accurately, and believe that what is set forth as being from the pen of Paul, or Isaiah, or Luke, is their writing, having nothing to do with Christ except as it may quote Him.
Then there would be no real basis for any faith in Christ.
I was not arguing against you, but trying to help explicate why you might see something written by Paul as having expressed the will of Christ, who can be taken to have inspired Paul to write it.
Not sure this sentence makes much sense. I fail to see how something Paul has received from Christ could not be the will of Christ. Similarly the question would apply to anything recorded in the NT by the NT writers.
To Polycarp1, Not quite. Sadly the passages you supply are no use without a holistic context.
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” This is true but that’s the law and prophets, Christians live according to the Spirit and by Grace and not judged accountable by the OT law. Furthermore same sex relations condemned and excluded throughout the Biblical testimony as against God’s purposes would hardly be loving God or one’s neighbour. Besides Jesus gave His disciples a new command to love one another as He loved.
How is condemning the act the Bible condemns unloving? It's in the NT, after all.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
To Godschild87,
Exactly, to condemn what God condemns would be loving God and one's neighbour. [/color][/font]
I think I missed something.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
How is condemning the act the Bible condemns unloving? It's in the NT, after all.
You know, I don't think anyone objects to conservative Christians believing that same-sex sex acts are sinful. It's their privilege to believe what they conclude from the reading of Scripture.
And that of course means that, believing them sinful, they themselves should not engage in them.
Where people see a violation of Christ's commandments in their behavior is in the desire on the part of many of them to enforce their beliefs about what God considers sinful by:
-- making statements that are extraordinarily hard to tell apart from "Hate the sin and the sinner equally." And all the "We love the sinner but hat the sin" pious platitudes people can aver do not undo the hurt that many gay people feel from the condemnation of them as intrinsically evil people.
-- misrepresenting the feelings and desires of gay people. How often has someone here said "There's no such thing as a gay Christian" or "They're only doing it because they have a hedonistic attitude that cares not what God has to say" or "...because they're led by Satan to rebel against God."
-- condemning their desire to obtain equality at law, to not be fired from a job for being gay, to not be beaten up by bullies for being gay (or having been accused of being gay, something that happens to many non-gay but 'odd' kids), to be told by supposed Christians that they are not welcome in their churches, to have their access to the rights and privileges of married couples denied because the love and commitment they feel would 'redefind marriage'. to be turned away from their beloved's deathbed while the blood family who rejected him for being gay is admitted....
There is a sermonette there in how self-styled Christians act in a manner contrary to what Christ taught towards gay people. And more and more, people are seeing "cultural Christianity" as not being adherence to the Man who gave His life that we might be reconciled to God, but as being the 21st century equivalent of Pharisee hypocricy.
And that is not only an offense against gay people -- it's the denying of Christ's commandment to go forth and preach God's love and forgiveness to a world badly in need of it. The core of the Gospel is not "Thou shalt not lie with a man the lyings as with a woman" but "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him should be saved" and "If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, and confess with your lips that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
When we let issues of young fearful pregnant girls considering abortion, or people finding themselves with same-sex sexual attractions, get in the way of the message that God loves ALL men, forgives ALL sins, commands us to treat EVERYONE as if they were Him... then we jave fallen short of what He commands of us.
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"It is written, 'My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you have made it a den of thieves." -Jesus
You know, I don't think anyone objects to conservative Christians believing that same-sex sex acts are sinful. It's their privilege to believe what they conclude from the reading of Scripture.
And that of course means that, believing them sinful, they themselves should not engage in them.
That should go without saying, IMO. But the world's not perfect. Much to my dismay!
Where people see a violation of Christ's commandments in their behavior is in the desire on the part of many of them to enforce their beliefs about what God considers sinful by:
-- making statements that are extraordinarily hard to tell apart from "Hate the sin and the sinner equally." And all the "We love the sinner but hat the sin" pious platitudes people can aver do not undo the hurt that many gay people feel from the condemnation of them as intrinsically evil people.
While it's true that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, it is a fine line that a lot of people do unfortunately cross. It can be used as a defense against someone who feels offended that you think what they practice is a sin, but it is all too often used as an excuse to do whatever they like. We need to be far more careful, myself included, even though I've had to deal with it for myself.
-- misrepresenting the feelings and desires of gay people. How often has someone here said "There's no such thing as a gay Christian" or "They're only doing it because they have a hedonistic attitude that cares not what God has to say" or "...because they're led by Satan to rebel against God."
While I do believe that one cannot accurately call themselves a Christian and be in rebellion against God's ways- in any kind of sin they are living in- I find that the need to actually say something about it is rare and usually not my place. I don't know of any Christians in my own life who have homosexual feelings besides over the internet.
-- condemning their desire to obtain equality at law, to not be fired from a job for being gay, to not be beaten up by bullies for being gay (or having been accused of being gay, something that happens to many non-gay but 'odd' kids), to be told by supposed Christians that they are not welcome in their churches, to have their access to the rights and privileges of married couples denied because the love and commitment they feel would 'redefind marriage'. to be turned away from their beloved's deathbed while the blood family who rejected him for being gay is admitted....
Agreed. Christians have no right to dictate what is moral or immoral for those who are not Christians, especially not when almost all of the above mentioned condemnations are not loving in the first place.
There is a sermonette there in how self-styled Christians act in a manner contrary to what Christ taught towards gay people. And more and more, people are seeing "cultural Christianity" as not being adherence to the Man who gave His life that we might be reconciled to God, but as being the 21st century equivalent of Pharisee hypocricy.
Indeed.
And that is not only an offense against gay people -- it's the denying of Christ's commandment to go forth and preach God's love and forgiveness to a world badly in need of it. The core of the Gospel is not "Thou shalt not lie with a man the lyings as with a woman" but "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him should be saved" and "If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, and confess with your lips that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
When we let issues of young fearful pregnant girls considering abortion, or people finding themselves with same-sex sexual attractions, get in the way of the message that God loves ALL men, forgives ALL sins, commands us to treat EVERYONE as if they were Him... then we jave fallen short of what He commands of us.
Reps incoming...
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Notice how many people actually go to this church, and note the response from Christians about what they're doing. Do you really think it's accurate to say that 'Christians burn Bibles too' when the groups that do are fringe groups?
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Notice how many people actually go to this church, and note the response from Christians about what they're doing. Do you really think it's accurate to say that 'Christians burn Bibles too' when the groups that do are fringe groups?
If you are partaking in the discussion of one man defacing the bible, why not discuss a group of Christians defacing the bible? Is there really a difference? Either way defacing shouldn't happen.
__________________ It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, oppressive, insipid. When faith is replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion -- its message becomes meaningless. - Abraham Heschel
Last edited by RevSJamison; 8th November 2009 at 10:12 PM.
The only reason I haven't burned my Bible in the garden is that I have too much respect for any and all writing (including everything from Mein Kampf to the latest celebrity ghost-written autobiography to classic literature). Burning any book is, for me, a powerful symbol of an authoritarian, anti-intellectual outlook.
As for ripping a page out...if MacKellan thinks people actually read the Gideon Bibles and/or are so stupid that they are automatically converted by just reading one thing, then I can see his point. In reality of course, most people just chuck their underwear in with the Bible in the hotel, and are far too psychologically complex to radically alter their worldview based on a single stimulus.
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"They keep you doped on religion and sex and TV, and you think you're so clever and "classless" and free, but you're still -------- peasants as far as I can see."--John Lennon, Working Class Hero
"If it's not Love, then it's the bomb that will bring us together." "Nature is a language, can't you read?" --The Smiths, Ask
Indeed. 
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