Question: "What is the scroll"

kotel · #11 4th November 2009, 04:21 PM

The scroll is the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week.

Standing Up · #12 4th November 2009, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by 5010

Oh' so excited to share what THE LORD has taught me I can hardly contain it!

Is anyone here familiar with the laws and traditions surrounding redemption of lost property? if not, here goes...

- A redeemer must be a close relative (JESUS born of woman but SON OF GOD!)

- A redeemer must fulfill all requirements to pay for the redemption of his "brother's" lost property.

- Scrolls were used to ascribe evidence and requirements for a given redemption. The sealed scroll could only be opened by the "REDEEMER" but the unsealed copies were given to the witnesses who would testify of the redeemers right to redeem and the fulfillment of all the requirements

Jer 32:7 Behold, Hanameel the son of Shallum thine uncle shall come unto thee, saying, Buy thee my field that [is] in Anathoth: for the right of redemption [is] thine to buy [it].

Jer 32:11 Then I took the sealed deed and an unsealed copy of the deed, which contained the terms and conditions of the purchase,

Jer 32:14 "The LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Take both this sealed deed and the unsealed copy, and put them into a pottery jar to preserve them for a long time.

- John cried when he heard no one could open the scroll because that meant no one could redeem the earth to whome Adam has sold our dominion through sin unto satan! That meant the earth and all who dwell on it, our entire family would be LOST!

- JESUS, THE LAMB OF GOD OVERCAME AND IS WORTHY AND ABLE TO OPEN THE SCROLL BECAUSE HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REDEEM THE EARTH!

\o/
HALLELUJAH!

This helps so much to understand the rest of Revelation and the "two witnesses", indeed it helps put everything into proper perspective. GLORY TO GOD!

Interesting.

There's also the story in Ruth 4 of redemption. Ruth 4:18 -generations- the Hebrew is once again spelled like it had been in Genesis (sorry don't have the details in front of me; it's from Perry Stone Ministries), indicating the whole earth.

NJBeliever · #13 4th November 2009, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Interesting.

There's also the story in Ruth 4 of redemption. Ruth 4:18 -generations- the Hebrew is once again spelled like it had been in Genesis (sorry don't have the details in front of me; it's from Perry Stone Ministries), indicating the whole earth.

Right. Ruth is another example. We even see the Kinsman redeemer marrying the Gentile who brought there by the Jew. So it's a very good type and shadow.

I think the passage from Jeremiah is an EXCELLENT interpretation of its end-time significance. It definitely fits as a type of the scroll in Rev 5. I don't know if it's the same one (I think the Daniel 12 scroll fits more) but I was definitely unaware of that passage in this context. Thanks for shedding some Biblical light.

Brad2009 · #14 4th November 2009, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by NJBeliever

It's the book that Daniel is asked to seal up until the end times at the end of the book of Daniel.

My thought is that the scroll which John takes from the angel's hand, right before launching into the vision of the beasts (which shares the symbol set from Daniel's vision of the beasts) was the prophecy which Daniel was told to seal up. John is specifically told that 'he must prophesy again, about many nations and peoples' when he takes the scroll from the angel with one foot on the land and one in the sea. I really think this is more consistent than to identify the scroll in Rev. 5 as Daniel's sealed prophecy.

I tend to agree with the above posters - that Jesus is worthy of 'redemption' of the scroll, and great references BTW! I think that's a good insight into why He is the only one worthy to open it. As for the identity of the scroll itself, I think we're still a little up in the air. Maybe it is like deed and title to the earth...

5010 · #15 4th November 2009, 07:52 PM

The Jews expected messiah to restore the kingdom. JESUS disciples asked HIM right before HIS ascention:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

This was how they viewed the prophecies of the messiah, who would "RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL".

After the two witnesses are raised then comes the blowing of the 7th(final) trumpet, notice how this is worded:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In bold we see the redemption for which the 2 witnesses have spent 1260 days testifying.

Remember when satan tempted JESUS in the wilderness saying:

Mat 4:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me

satan tempted JESUS this way knowing HE would have to endure the cross in order to redeem the earth, satan was in effect offering JESUS a way around the cross.

JESUS told us this parable also:

Mat 13:44

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

The man is JESUS and we are the treasure, the field is the earth. JESUS sold/gave everything HE had in order to buy the field with us in it!

Daniel saw it too:

Dan 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Isn't the entire bible testifying of JESUS and all these things?

WORTHY IS THE LAMB!

Standing Up · #16 4th November 2009, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by NJBeliever

Right. Ruth is another example. We even see the Kinsman redeemer marrying the Gentile who brought there by the Jew. So it's a very good type and shadow.

That's why the spelling of generations changes.

I think the passage from Jeremiah is an EXCELLENT interpretation of its end-time significance. It definitely fits as a type of the scroll in Rev 5. I don't know if it's the same one (I think the Daniel 12 scroll fits more) but I was definitely unaware of that passage in this context. Thanks for shedding some Biblical light.

So how do you see the 2 witnesses fitting in?

zeke37 · #17 4th November 2009, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Zadok7000

This has made me think on some things. Maybe just stream of consciousness type stuff, give it a whirl:

Ezek. 2:9-3:3
And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

Rev. 5:1-4
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

+

Rev. 10 (same book only now opened)
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

If this is indeed Daniel's book sealed, did he see Ezekiel and John in this vision??

Dan. 12:4-9
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

I believe that when a prophet has a vision, and sees an individual or two there, doing specific work....doing heavenly work....imo it is one of their brethren

for ex. Who is measuring the Millennial temple in Ez40

or who speaks to John in Rev22, as a brethren and prophet?

5010 · #18 5th November 2009, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Standing Up

That's why the spelling of generations changes.

So how do you see the 2 witnesses fitting in?

Jer 32:9-12 And I bought the field of Hanameel my uncle's son, that was in Anathoth, and weighed him the money, even seventeen shekels of silverAnd I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances. So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open: And I gave the evidence of the purchase unto Baruch the son of Neriah, the son of Maaseiah, in the sight of Hanameel mine uncle's son, and in the presence of the witnesses that subscribed the book of the purchase, before all the Jews that sat in the court of the prison.

Witnesses are required for the redemption of property.

Ruth 4:7-11 (Now in earlier times in Israel, for the redemption and transfer of property to become final, one party took off his sandal and gave it to the other. This was the method of legalizing transactions in Israel.) So the kinsman-redeemer said to Boaz, "Buy it yourself." And he removed his sandal. Then Boaz announced to the elders and all the people, "Today you are witnesses that I have bought from Naomi all the property of Elimelech, Kilion and Mahlon. I have also acquired Ruth the Moabitess, Mahlon's widow, as my wife, in order to maintain the name of the dead with his property, so that his name will not disappear from among his family or from the town records. Today you are witnesses!" Then the elders and all those at the gate said, "We are witnesses. May the LORD make the woman who is coming into your home like Rachel and Leah, who together built up the house of Israel. May you have standing in Ephrathah and be famous in Bethlehem.

Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Clearly picturing JESUS redeeming us from our bondage here on earth.

2 witnesses also visited Sodom.

Remember also what they said in heaven after THE LAMB took the scroll:

Rev 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Zadok7000 · #19 5th November 2009, 11:06 AM

BTW, this scroll being Daniel's or a "purchase order" aren't mututally exclusive, are they?

Brad2009 · #20 5th November 2009, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zadok7000

BTW, this scroll being Daniel's or a "purchase order" aren't mututally exclusive, are they?

I think that they are. Daniel's scroll is a prophecy, correct? A deed and title would be something different.

That's leaving aside that there are two scrolls mentioned in Revelation - the first in Rev. 5 that only Jesus is worthy to open, the second in Rev. 10 which John takes from the angel who has one foot on the land and one in the sea and is told specifically, after eating the scroll, that "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."

I think its much more likely that the second scroll is rightly identified as Daniel's sealed prophecy. In the next chapters, which I assume are the substance of the prophecy from the scroll taken from the hand of the angel, we see the two beasts starting in chapter 13. The first beast shares the same symbols as all of Daniel's four beasts - leading me to believe that the second scroll is Daniel's sealed prophecy.