Forgiveness

Maurice88 · #1 2nd November 2009, 07:01 PM

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven

If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

Jaws13 · #2 2nd November 2009, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven

If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

God doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose it for themselves by ignoring God's offer for forgiveness. See siggy.

bsd31 · #3 2nd November 2009, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven

If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

Read the scripture in context. Start at verse 15.

It's talking about a brother who has been shown the error of his ways, has listened and has responded by asking for forgiveness. God does forgive us without fail when we repent and ask Him to forgive us. He shows us the error of our ways. Sometimes He has to do it over and over again and sometimes only once. But He never fails to forgive us no matter how many times we screw up.

The judgment of hell isn't against someone asking forgiveness it's against someone who flat out refuses to be forgiven. They refuse the gift of grace. They will not be shown the error of their ways, they do not believe they can be held accountable.

RobertZ · #4 2nd November 2009, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven

If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

That portion of scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation.

fm107 · #5 2nd November 2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven

If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

Well the people who are going to be going to Hell for eternity are those who did not repent for their sins.

One should be in a repentant state in order to be forgiven!

Luke 17:4
If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Please note in the above quote, "I repent."

Webers_Home · #6 2nd November 2009, 09:56 PM

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RE: If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity

Your if is correct. There is a Hell where some will spend eternity. (Mrk 9:43-48 and Rev 14:9-11)

RE: and God is the judge who sends them there

That 's true. God is the judge who "sends" them there. (Luke 12:4-5, and Rev 20:15)

RE: does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’?

It certainly would if we weren't talking apples and oranges. Mtt 18:21-22 regards things people do to each other without necessarily breaking any laws; while Hell regards criminal justice; viz: violations of the laws of God. In that respect, there is a point of no return when God begins to mock rather than offer clemency.

†. Pro 1:22-28 . . How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge If you had responded to my correction; I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you.

. . But since you rejected me when I called and gave no heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my correction; I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you— when calamity overtakes you like a typhoon, when disaster sweeps over you like a tornado, when distress and trouble flood you. Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.

RE: It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

Where is the forgiveness? Out of reach.

†. Ecc 3:1 . . To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven

For some; the season is past; for others; there's still hope.

†. 2 Cor 6:1-2 . .We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he says: I have heard you in an acceptable time, and in the day of salvation have I helped you: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Maurice88 · #7 2nd November 2009, 10:04 PM

Mmmm, not sure I get it! I agree, it has nothing to do with "salvation" it has to do with forgiveness. The seventy times seven would indicate we must always forgive, however God will not forgive some.

I am just finding it very hard to embrace a "loving" God who could condemn someone to eternal hell - no matter what their crimes (sins). The bible paints a pretty gruesome picture of hell and I just don't understand the point of God's 'system' where a person (soul) has to live in hell for ever.

God is love, so how could "love" condemn a soul to the horrors of eternal hell? Others have told me that people condemn themselves, we all have a choice. This doesn't answer my question about a loving God having hell as part of His plan for his children. We are God's children - would any parent allow a child of theirs to spend eternity in the horrors hell?

Lets say a husband and wife, who loved each other, died at the same time. One went to heaven the other to hell for eternity. Would the one who went to heaven be happy knowing his/her partner was screaming in agony for eternity in the horror of hell?

A Pastor told me forget these questions, have faith and to just trust God. I tried that but it didn't work. There are somethings one just can't turn off and on like a tap. The bible is the best book I have ever found, it touches the soul and smacks you in the face with truths you just know deep inside should be followed. However God's plan of allowing indiscribable pain and suffering in hell, with no chance of reprieve, is a real stumbling block for me.

Jaws13 · #8 2nd November 2009, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Mmmm, not sure I get it! I agree, it has nothing to do with "salvation" it has to do with forgiveness. The seventy times seven would indicate we must always forgive, however God will not forgive some.

I am just finding it very hard to embrace a "loving" God who could condemn someone to eternal hell - no matter what their crimes (sins). The bible paints a pretty gruesome picture of hell and I just don't understand the point of God's 'system' where a person (soul) has to live in hell for ever.

They condemn themselves. God set the standard, and they didn't bother caring. They brought it upon themselves.

God is love, so how could "love" condemn a soul to the horrors of eternal hell? Others have told me that people condemn themselves, we all have a choice. This doesn't answer my question about a loving God having hell as part of His plan for his children. We are God's children - would any parent allow a child of theirs to spend eternity in the horrors hell?

Lets say a husband and wife, who loved each other, died at the same time. One went to heaven the other to hell for eternity. Would the one who went to heaven be happy knowing his/her partner was screaming in agony for eternity in the horror of hell?

A Pastor told me forget these questions, have faith and to just trust God. I tried that but it didn't work. There are somethings one just can't turn off and on like a tap. The bible is the best book I have ever found, it touches the soul and smacks you in the face with truths you just know deep inside should be followed. However God's plan of allowing indiscribable pain and suffering in hell, with no chance of reprieve, is a real stumbling block for me.

Excuse my insult, but that pastor likely doesn't know much about theology. There won't be crying, pain, or suffering in heaven, so the married person who went to heaven probably won't know about their previous partner.

Here's the philosophical explanation: sins are not finite, they are infinite, and thusly deserve an infinite punishment. The sins we partake in have an impact on other people and can cause them to miss out on an eternity with God. Thus, sin deserves an eternity of punishment.

bsd31 · #9 2nd November 2009, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Mmmm, not sure I get it! I agree, it has nothing to do with "salvation" it has to do with forgiveness. The seventy times seven would indicate we must always forgive, however God will not forgive some.

I am just finding it very hard to embrace a "loving" God who could condemn someone to eternal hell - no matter what their crimes (sins). The bible paints a pretty gruesome picture of hell and I just don't understand the point of God's 'system' where a person (soul) has to live in hell for ever.

God is love, so how could "love" condemn a soul to the horrors of eternal hell? Others have told me that people condemn themselves, we all have a choice. This doesn't answer my question about a loving God having hell as part of His plan for his children. We are God's children - would any parent allow a child of theirs to spend eternity in the horrors hell?

Lets say a husband and wife, who loved each other, died at the same time. One went to heaven the other to hell for eternity. Would the one who went to heaven be happy knowing his/her partner was screaming in agony for eternity in the horror of hell?

A Pastor told me forget these questions, have faith and to just trust God. I tried that but it didn't work. There are somethings one just can't turn off and on like a tap. The bible is the best book I have ever found, it touches the soul and smacks you in the face with truths you just know deep inside should be followed. However God's plan of allowing indiscribable pain and suffering in hell, with no chance of reprieve, is a real stumbling block for me.

So then don't embrace Him. Until you settle it in your own heart calling yourself a Christian isn't going to make you one if you don't fully trust God.

You're only lying to yourself if you say on the one hand you love God more than anything else in all of life, but on the other hand you have venom in your heart towards His righteousness.

I'm certainly not trying to discourage you from seeking God, continue to do that, but until you can move beyond the pagan trap that a loving God can't allow an eternal hell you're going to have a hard time ever putting Him before everything else in your life.

alexanderjc · #10 3rd November 2009, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Maurice88

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven

If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?

It is not uncommon for Christians to have questions about forgiveness. Forgiveness does not come easy for some. Our natural instinct is to recoil in self-protection when we've been injured. We don't naturally overflow with mercy, grace and forgiveness when we've been wronged. Jesus knew this and gave Peter the answer not only for him but for all of us. For a Child of God there is no limit to forgiveness when someone does something wrong to you. Why because as long as we are in this body we will do wrong ourselves and need forgiveness from God and if we can't forgive our brother how do we expect God to forgive us.

What was written in that scripture had nothing to do with hell. There will be absolutely no christians in hell.

Those of us that have given our lives to Christ are called the Children of God and those who haven't, according to the Word of God are children of the devil these are the ones who will spend eternity in hell and they will go there because they believed not on the Son of God but walked according to this world.

Ephesians 2:2 states "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

The children of disobedience was once us before we received salvation and the prince of the power of the air is the devil.

The bottom line is you need to study the Word of God more and take it for what it says. Every question that you need answered as it pertains to God He has provided the answer to it in His Word. God will never contradict Himself it is only your misunderstanding of what is being written that is confusing you.