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Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven
If there is a hell, where some will spend eternity, and God is the judge who sends them there, does that not contradict the “seventy times seven’? It’s like God is saying we must always forgive each other, yet He will send some to hell (for eternity) – where is the forgiveness there?
You are making assumptions about Hell based on mythology, not Scriptural truth.
The default is Hell. A popular saying goes, "There is no way out of Hell". Really. Do you know for sure. And what is Hell and her outlines? They do not know.
But people should repent from their evil and not attempt to stay to them.
Who knows whether there is a way out of Hell or not? God.
God is love. So who believes that. Really?
Not many...
People form their beliefs by what they have done, whether deeds and words by faith or not.
. RE: The seventy times seven would indicate we must always forgive
No, not always. Forgiveness is dependent upon two prerequisites.
1) The "sin" must be a personal offense. Crime does not qualify.
†. Mat 18:21 . . Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?
†. Luke 17:3 . . If your brother sins against you
2) The offender must own his wrong and seek reconciliation with the person they offended.
†. Luke 17:3 . . if he repents, forgive him.
In the event of the commission of a crime, the incident becomes a matter for the cops and the courts.
†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
RE: This doesn't answer my question about a loving God having hell as part of His plan for his children. We are God's children - would any parent allow a child of theirs to spend eternity in the horrors hell?
The right to indentify one's self as a child of God is a bestowed right, rather than an intrinsic right. Not everyone has the right to identify themselves with God's children. By default, human beings come into existence as children of the dust; viz: Adam's children; not God's. In order to be accepted into God's home as one of His own kin, Adam's children must undergo a re-Genesis; viz: a second birth. This alone grants them the right to identify themselves as God's kin.
†. John 1:12-13 . .To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision, or a husband's will, but born of God.
Second births are not optional; no they are a must if Adam's children wish to obtain a place around the table in God's home as His kin.
†. John 3:3 . . I tell you the truth: no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above.
†. John 3:7 . .You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born again.
†. 1Cor 15:50 . . Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
RE: The bible paints a pretty gruesome picture of hell and I just don't understand the point of God's 'system' where a person (soul) has to live in hell for ever.
Justice always seeks a balance; an equality— in order to do so; the punishment has to fit the crime. Since the dignity of God and His laws is off the scale; then the punishment for scofflaws has to be off the scale too in order for justice to obtain its balance according to the principle of eye for eye, tooth for tooth, foot for foot, burning for burning, stripe for stripe, life for life.
RE: Lets say a husband and wife, who loved each other, died at the same time. One went to heaven the other to hell for eternity. Would the one who went to heaven be happy knowing his/her partner was screaming in agony for eternity in the horror of hell?
This is where the supernatural aspect of Christianity comes into play with something called the fruit of the Spirit; two elements of which are Joy and Peace. (Gal 5:22)
In addition to the fruit of the Spirit; God's kin are slated for a memory-wipe.
†. Isa 65:17 . . For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
†. Rev 7:17 . . For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
†. Rev 21:4-5 . . And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
RE: God's plan of allowing indescribable pain and suffering in hell, with no chance of reprieve, is a real stumbling block for me.
It's not supposed to be a stumbling block; no, it's supposed to be a terror.
†. Isa 66:24 . . And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh.
†. Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
†. Mark 9:43-48 . . If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched.
. . And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched.
. . And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched.
The Greek word for worms is skolex (sko'-lakes) which identifies grubs, maggots, and/or earth-worms. The worms, of course, are implied to feed upon the damned just as normal worms in life thrive on an open corpse. A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not totally unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176 degrees— hot enough to sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.
Acts 12:21-23 records a Herod's death by skolex of the infectious parasitic type. The biblical record goes right to the bottom line without any details, but according to an article I read in a back issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, Herod didn't die immediately as the Biblical narrative seems to suggest, but rather, suffered with the malady quite a while. The worms were located mostly in his private parts (which may have included the prostate) and were so painful at times that he couldn't even walk or conduct state business.
Christian and non Christian alike often bleat that the Bible's God is love, love, love. But even the God of love has a dump, and a portion of its contents are the remains of human beings rather than just trash and garbage. An interesting concept to associate with The Lord's dump site is the necessity of sanitary disposal; which is really what landfills and dumps are designed to accomplish in order to prevent the spread of disease; which suggests that people in Hell are both toxic and infectious.
†. Mtt 9:12 . .They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
When The Lord returns, the first order of business is a thorough Spring cleaning followed by a trip to the dump.
†. Mtt 13:41-42 . . I, the Son of man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my kingdom everything that's offensive, and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
C.L.I.F.F.
/
Last edited by Webers_Home; 3rd November 2009 at 12:23 PM.
. RE: The seventy times seven would indicate we must always forgive
No, not always. Forgiveness is dependent upon two prerequisites.
1) The "sin" must be a personal offense. Crime does not qualify.
†. Mat 18:21 . . Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?
†. Luke 17:3 . . If your brother sins against you
2) The offender must own his wrong and seek reconciliation with the person they offended.
†. Luke 17:3 . . if he repents, forgive him.
In the event of the commission of a crime, the incident becomes a matter for the cops and the courts.
†. Rom 13:3-4 . . For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
RE: This doesn't answer my question about a loving God having hell as part of His plan for his children. We are God's children - would any parent allow a child of theirs to spend eternity in the horrors hell?
The right to indentify one's self as a child of God is a bestowed right, rather than an intrinsic right. Not everyone has the right to identify themselves with God's children. By default, human beings come into existence as children of the dust; viz: Adam's children; not God's. In order to be accepted into God's home as one of His own kin, Adam's children must undergo a re-Genesis; viz: a second birth. This alone grants them the right to identify themselves as God's kin.
†. John 1:12-13 . .To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision, or a husband's will, but born of God.
Second births are not optional; no they are a must if Adam's children wish to obtain a place around the table in God's home as His kin.
†. John 3:3 . . I tell you the truth: no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above.
†. John 3:7 . .You should not be surprised at my saying you must be born again.
†. 1Cor 15:50 . . Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
RE: The bible paints a pretty gruesome picture of hell and I just don't understand the point of God's 'system' where a person (soul) has to live in hell for ever.
Justice always seeks a balance; an equality— in order to do so; the punishment has to fit the crime. Since the dignity of God and His laws is off the scale; then the punishment for scofflaws has to be off the scale too in order for justice to obtain its balance according to the principle of eye for eye, tooth for tooth, foot for foot, burning for burning, stripe for stripe, life for life.
RE: Lets say a husband and wife, who loved each other, died at the same time. One went to heaven the other to hell for eternity. Would the one who went to heaven be happy knowing his/her partner was screaming in agony for eternity in the horror of hell?
This is where the supernatural aspect of Christianity comes into play with something called the fruit of the Spirit; two elements of which are Joy and Peace. (Gal 5:22)
In addition to the fruit of the Spirit; God's kin are slated for a memory-wipe.
†. Isa 65:17 . . For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
†. Rev 7:17 . . For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
†. Rev 21:4-5 . . And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
RE: God's plan of allowing indescribable pain and suffering in hell, with no chance of reprieve, is a real stumbling block for me.
It's not supposed to be a stumbling block; no, it's supposed to be a terror.
†. Isa 66:24 . . And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh.
†. Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
†. Mark 9:43-48 . . If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched.
. . And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched.
. . And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— their worm does not die
and the fire is never quenched.
The Greek word for worms is skolex (sko'-lakes) which identifies grubs, maggots, and/or earth-worms. The worms, of course, are implied to feed upon the damned just as normal worms in life thrive on an open corpse. A worm that thrives in flame is pretty amazing, but not totally unreasonable. The 4-inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176 degrees— hot enough to sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms that like it even warmer.
Acts 12:21-23 records a Herod's death by skolex of the infectious parasitic type. The biblical record goes right to the bottom line without any details, but according to an article I read in a back issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, Herod didn't die immediately as the Biblical narrative seems to suggest, but rather, suffered with the malady quite a while. The worms were located mostly in his private parts (which may have included the prostate) and were so painful at times that he couldn't even walk or conduct state business.
Christian and non Christian alike often bleat that the Bible's God is love, love, love. But even the God of love has a dump, and a portion of its contents are the remains of human beings rather than just trash and garbage. An interesting concept to associate with The Lord's dump site is the necessity of sanitary disposal; which is really what landfills and dumps are designed to accomplish in order to prevent the spread of disease; which suggests that people in Hell are both toxic and infectious.
†. Mtt 9:12 . .They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
When The Lord returns, the first order of business is a thorough Spring cleaning followed by a trip to the dump.
†. Mtt 13:41-42 . . I, the Son of man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my kingdom everything that's offensive, and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
C.L.I.F.F.
/
This is scaring me to death, I dont want to be thrown into Hell.
. RE: This is scaring me to death, I dont want to be thrown into Hell.
You'll be okay as long as you do exactly as I tell you.
Look in the Yellow Pages for a Conservative Baptist church in your area. There's other kinds of Baptist churches but I cannot personally vouch for any of their messages.
Call the church office and make an appointment to speak with a pastor. It doesn't have to be the senior pastor; an associate will do. When you come together, be frank and spell out your concerns as clearly and as simply as you can make them. He'll take it from there.
You don't have to join the church, nor should there be a fee for the interview. Christ's men have a mandate (Mrk 16:15) and they are not allowed to profit from it. That's known as the error of Balaam; the notorious prophet for profit in Numbers 22, 23, and 24. (cf. 2Pet 2:15-16)
BTW: You should upgrade your "Newbie" status.
Click on User CP located in the thin blue ribbon at the top of the page.
Then click on Edit Your Details.
Go down the page to Custom User Title
Put a check mark in the little Reset box.
Go down the page and click the Save Changes button
When you return to the forums, your status will be different.
C.L.I.F.F.
/
Last edited by Webers_Home; 3rd November 2009 at 02:49 PM.
. RE: This is scaring me to death, I dont want to be thrown into Hell.
You'll be okay as long as you do exactly as I tell you.
Look in the Yellow Pages for a Conservative Baptist church in your area. There's other kinds of Baptist churches but I cannot personally vouch for any of their messages.
Call the church office and make an appointment to speak with a pastor. It doesn't have to be the senior pastor; an associate will do. When you come together, be frank and spell out your concerns as clearly and as simply as you can make them. He'll take it from there.
You don't have to join the church, nor should there be a fee for the interview. Christ's men have a mandate (Mrk 16:15) and they are not allowed to profit from it. That's known as the error of Balaam; the notorious prophet for profit in Numbers 22, 23, and 24. (cf. 2Pet 2:15-16)
C.L.I.F.F.
/
Well your probably going to be shocked when I tell you this but I have been attending church all of my 36yrs on this earth and its a baptist church that I attend.
I always thought I would be able to repent any time that I wanted to, I bought into satans lie that as long as their is life their is opportunity. Delaying salvation is dangerous not just because you can die unexpectedly but also you risk the danger of being abandoned by Gods Holy Spirit and left to die in your sins.
Im in bad shape man, I have been going through this for nearly a year and I to my horror cannot seem to find God or truly have a heart felt repentant heart. I have hardened my heart beyond belief and dulled my conscience past feeling.
I have committed so many terrible sins and sinned against a great amount of light, I have a seared my conscience and I know I should feel terrible about my past sins but I have a hard time really feeling sorry about it. Ughh.........this is a horrible position to be in.
I have also talked with church counselors until the point that they were giving up hope as well because nothing was working. I believe that there is a point of no return that one can cross between Gods mercy and Gods wrath but most people cross that line and never realize it.
It seems I crossed that line and then later realized it and now cannot for the life of me be saved, that warning you posted in Proverbs speaks directly to me and accusses me and to this day is haunting me because I cant find God even though im searching diligently. So many times God dealt with me, so many opportunities that I turned away, Im damned, I just know im damned.
. RE: This is scaring me to death, I dont want to be thrown into Hell.
You'll be okay as long as you do exactly as I tell you.
Look in the Yellow Pages for a Conservative Baptist church in your area. There's other kinds of Baptist churches but I cannot personally vouch for any of their messages.
Call the church office and make an appointment to speak with a pastor. It doesn't have to be the senior pastor; an associate will do. When you come together, be frank and spell out your concerns as clearly and as simply as you can make them. He'll take it from there.
You don't have to join the church, nor should there be a fee for the interview. Christ's men have a mandate (Mrk 16:15) and they are not allowed to profit from it. That's known as the error of Balaam; the notorious prophet for profit in Numbers 22, 23, and 24. (cf. 2Pet 2:15-16)
That's funny. I always thought, and believed the only way to escape hell was to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Didn't realize that conservative baptist churches had anything to do with it!
That's funny. I always thought, and believed the only way to escape hell was to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Didn't realize that conservative baptist churches had anything to do with it!
Please dont derail this conversation with a bickering argument. I need help, all the help that I can get so I would like for this to stay on track so if you have anything useful to add that would help me out I would appreciate it.
And I dont mean that in a smart elic way at all.
Last edited by RobertZ; 3rd November 2009 at 03:58 PM.
I have dreams where all these men of God are praying over me and crying out and then they all suddenly stop and look at each other with a look of hopelessness on their face and they get up and walk away shaking their heads.
Did I commit the sin unto death? the one that scripture commands men not to pray about because God has given that person up?
Well, in that case, I'd suggest you use whatever time you have remaining to begin preparing yourself for the worst when you cross over to the other side. I'd also suggest that you find lots of interesting and stimulating things to do while you can.
I've been active on internet message boards for maybe twelve years now— beginning with Excite and Lycos, and eventually spreading out to Yahoo, then to Beliefnet, BibleForums, CrossWalk, and ChristianForums —and it's been my experience that most people, including professing Xians, haven't really given the Bible's hell much thought.
I just wish there were tour buses to the Bible's hell so people could see what's in store for them down there; and not only the degree of suffering that people can expect in the next life, but also Hell's impact upon the human mind.
There are people languishing in the Bible's hell this very moment, even as you read this, who have been there not only since the time of Christ, but since the Flood. I won't speculate on how many years that might be, but Egypt's first pyramid, the Step Pyramid of Djoser, was about 4,600 years ago. The damned from Djoser's era have not only spent 4,600 years in the Bible's hell already, but they have another 4,600 yet to go, and another 4,600 years to go after that. Even after existing in the Bible's hell for 100 million years, people will still have that many more years out ahead of them.
To put those 100m-year increments in perspective, if they were miles, they'd stretch out to the Sun with enough left over to make fifteen round trips to the Moon.
People in Hell go year, after year, after year, after year, with no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no hobbies— there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce and writhe in fire. The mental atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless existence is beyond estimation.
In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens, pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, cheering for out favorite team during the World Series of Baseball, spending days with grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and want.
And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and sobbing, and the screams, shrieks, howls, yelps, and gnashing teeth. Conditions are really bad, and no one has a good attitude about it; and in that kind of environment, it's reasonable to expect quarrels, and ugly words exchanged between people. (Is there really any good reason to respect your fellow man's civil liberties in the Bible's hell; or to be courteous, kind, forgiving, and patient?) Everyone is sad, blue, and lonely; and after a few years of the conditions I've been describing, I should think most folks break, and go mad from the stress.
Time stands still in the Bible's hell: it's for the now; it's an existence. People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in stir like convicts serving sentences in prisons expecting to get out some day; nor is Hell a tour of duty like a year in Viet Nam. No, people in the Bible's hell are its perpetual residents.
But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available. Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. Or a sexual appetite with no way to satisfy it. A desire for music, with no way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.
People in the Bible's hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree, take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp, see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor gobble barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.
Sports and recreation are gone: no more world series, no more super bowl, no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more golf, no more surfing, et al.
No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no iPhones, no computers, no Twitters, no texting, no FaceBook, no YouTube, no MySpace, no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies; absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the satisfactions of just being alive.
No pets are allowed in the Bible's hell and no flowers or vegetation of any kind. The absence of birds, fish, and animals of course precludes the citizens of Hell ever again spending a day at the zoo. The one advantage of the lack of pets and vegetation in Hell is the absence of fleas and allergies. I suppose you could say that's at least one good thing about it. There's a bright side to everything I guess; even to that place.
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