| Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians. |
 | | 
2nd November 2009, 12:26 PM
| | Regular Member
   
| | Join Date: 27th February 2008
Posts: 3,352
Blessings: 31,076,735
Reps: 124,582,378,884,127,696 (power: 124,582,378,884,134) | | | Why design a system that requires faith for salvation?
If there is a God why does he not make Himself obvious?
Would it be fair if a brilliant scientist could proof logically there had to be a God from scientific evidence?
Does there always have to be some doubt to the existence of God or doubt in the promises of God?
There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit:
1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being percieved independent to being dependent on God.
2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.
3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.
4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.
Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?  |
2nd November 2009, 12:45 PM
|  | Urban Nomad. Literally.
    
| | Join Date: 2nd November 2007 Location: Freezing, America
Posts: 14,478
Blessings: 1,538,265 My Mood 
Reps: 416,617,700,174,524,864 (power: 416,617,700,174,543) | | | Faith is based on the facts contained in the Bible, so it's not completely subjective.
__________________ Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> "Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
NO ONE is mandated to agree with anyone. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. |
2nd November 2009, 02:27 PM
| | Regular Member
| | Join Date: 27th February 2008
Posts: 3,352
Blessings: 31,076,735
Reps: 124,582,378,884,127,696 (power: 124,582,378,884,134) | | Originally Posted by Godschild87  Faith is based on the facts contained in the Bible, so it's not completely subjective.
What does that mean?
Was there faith before there was a Bible? |
2nd November 2009, 02:33 PM
|  | Awesomesauce
  
 | | Join Date: 4th September 2009 Location: .o0o.
Posts: 2,171
Blessings: 1,400,138,606 My Mood 
Reps: 764,923,881,117,308,800 (power: 764,923,881,117,313) | | | God gives us faith
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" (Ephesians 2:8)
We can't conjure it up ourselves. It's only doubt that can hinder it, but with God, doubt is the most unreasonable thing in the world.
As for seeing no evidence for God
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen." (Romans 1:18-25)
God is said to exist if their isn't an alternative naturalistic explanation, but that isn't how to prove there's a God, it's how to prove a miracle. Since God made even naturalistic causes and laws, they can never disprove that God didn't do something, they can only, in fact, give evidence for Him.
__________________ ENFP - psycho
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
2nd November 2009, 03:53 PM
| | Urban Nomad. Literally.
| | Join Date: 2nd November 2007 Location: Freezing, America
Posts: 14,478
Blessings: 1,538,265 My Mood
Reps: 416,617,700,174,524,864 (power: 416,617,700,174,543) | | Originally Posted by bling What does that mean?
Was there faith before there was a Bible?
It means that we have faith based on the facts of the Bible. We don't come to it on our own most of the time. Surely you can see where I'm going with this and don't need an answer to the 'was there faith...' question. But just in case, I said the facts of the Bible, which the people in Bible times had the privilege of observing. They too had faith based on facts. This is why John writes about so many miracles, then quips in chapter 20 of his gospel that they've been written so people can believe. Faith is not blind.
__________________ Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> "Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
NO ONE is mandated to agree with anyone. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. |
2nd November 2009, 03:55 PM
| | Urban Nomad. Literally.
| | Join Date: 2nd November 2007 Location: Freezing, America
Posts: 14,478
Blessings: 1,538,265 My Mood
Reps: 416,617,700,174,524,864 (power: 416,617,700,174,543) | | Originally Posted by catzrfluffy God gives us faith
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" (Ephesians 2:8)
That's talking about grace, not faith.
We can't conjure it up ourselves. It's only doubt that can hinder it, but with God, doubt is the most unreasonable thing in the world.
We most certainly can and do every day. Do you drive? You have faith that the other cars will stop at a stop sign or red light. Do you fly? You have faith that the pilot is certified and can fly the plane without complication. Do you ride a bike? You have faith that it will support your weight because it has done so in the past.
__________________ Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> "Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
NO ONE is mandated to agree with anyone. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. |
2nd November 2009, 03:57 PM
|  | elman
71  
| | Join Date: 19th December 2003 Location: Texas
Posts: 22,067
Blessings: 227,665
Reps: 31,654,610,401,511,400 (power: 31,654,610,401,542) | | Originally Posted by bling If there is a God why does he not make Himself obvious?
Would it be fair if a brilliant scientist could proof logically there had to be a God from scientific evidence?
Does there always have to be some doubt to the existence of God or doubt in the promises of God?
There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit:
1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being percieved independent to being dependent on God.
2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.
3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.
4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.
Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?
I speculate that God hides from us to keep from overwhelming us with His presence and thereby preventing our becoming loving beings. To become a loving being, one must make the choice to love. If God with all His power was standing before us, it would be not a choice to love as much as it would be a choice by intimidation.
__________________
I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die. |
2nd November 2009, 04:36 PM
|  | Deus est regit qui omnia
19  
| | Join Date: 14th April 2008 Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,947
Blessings: 1,156,879
Reps: 154,453,018,393,906,720 (power: 154,453,018,393,912) | | | to make foolish the wisdom of the world.
__________________
But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope:
The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases;
His mercies never come to an end;
They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
Lamentations 3:21-23
|
2nd November 2009, 05:46 PM
| | Regular Member
| | Join Date: 27th February 2008
Posts: 3,352
Blessings: 31,076,735
Reps: 124,582,378,884,127,696 (power: 124,582,378,884,134) | | Originally Posted by catzrfluffy God gives us faith
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" (Ephesians 2:8)
We can't conjure it up ourselves. It's only doubt that can hinder it, but with God, doubt is the most unreasonable thing in the world.
As for seeing no evidence for God
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen." (Romans 1:18-25)
God is said to exist if their isn't an alternative naturalistic explanation, but that isn't how to prove there's a God, it's how to prove a miracle. Since God made even naturalistic causes and laws, they can never disprove that God didn't do something, they can only, in fact, give evidence for Him.
Did Adam and Eve have faith and was it given to them by God?
Eph. 2:8 from the context is not saying faith is a gift from God and faith is not it the nueter gender to be grammatically correct. |
2nd November 2009, 05:48 PM
| | Regular Member
| | Join Date: 27th February 2008
Posts: 3,352
Blessings: 31,076,735
Reps: 124,582,378,884,127,696 (power: 124,582,378,884,134) | | Originally Posted by elman I speculate that God hides from us to keep from overwhelming us with His presence and thereby preventing our becoming loving beings. To become a loving being, one must make the choice to love. If God with all His power was standing before us, it would be not a choice to love as much as it would be a choice by intimidation.
where Adam and Eve overwhelmed?
Jesus did not overwheim people with His presence, so why could not God come to us as Christ? | | |
| Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode |
| | |
