Why design a system that requires faith for salvation?

Yab Yum · #31 3rd November 2009, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

Things being revealed to someone is not faith, that's belief.

Is that another "English translation"?

Did God deliver Israel into Canaan because of their faith or in spite of their lack of it?

Originally Posted by itisdeliciouscake

those words aren't contradictory?

Very good, thank you.

Faith is a gift and indeed is desperately required - but it is a requirement we place on God, not vice versa.

Jaws13 · #32 3rd November 2009, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Yab Yum

Is that another "English translation"?

No, that too is in the Greek... Haven't you ever studied the Bible?

Did God deliver Israel into Canaan because of their faith or in spite of their lack of it?

Does it matter? He did.

Very good, thank you.

Faith is a gift and indeed is desperately required - but it is a requirement we place on God, not vice versa.

You've yet to provide evidence for this assertion.

Yab Yum · #33 3rd November 2009, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

You've yet to provide evidence for this assertion.

You're just giving me an excuse to post more quotes that make my point.

1 Thess 1:4-5
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

1 Corinthians 12:3
No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:16
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

1 Corinthians 4:7
What do you have that you did not receive?

Colossians 2:12
... having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:18-20
... having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly place ...

John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Philippians 2:13
... for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Shall we continue?

Faith is not apart from grace and grace is salvation.

We cannot raise ourselves.

We live the life of faith not in hope of life but because of our regenerated heart.

Jaws13 · #34 3rd November 2009, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Yab Yum

You're just giving me an excuse to post more quotes that make my point.

You've not posted anything that makes your point just yet.

1 Thess 1:4-5
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

Nothing about faith.

1 Corinthians 12:3
No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Nothing about faith.

Romans 9:16
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Nothing about faith.

1 Corinthians 4:7
What do you have that you did not receive?

It's talking about arrogance, not salvation...

Colossians 2:12
... having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Nothing about faith.

Ephesians 1:18-20
... having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly place ...

Nothing about faith.

John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Again, talking about belief, not faith.

Philippians 2:13
... for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Nothing about faith.

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith.

Nothing about faith being a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Nothing about faith.

Shall we continue?

I'm far more stubborn than you, so that's up to you.

Faith is not apart from grace and grace is salvation.

Faith is apart from grace. I give grace to the kids I work with all the time, some of them still don't have faith. Grace is not salvation, it provides the means for salvation. Your theology is messed up.

We cannot raise ourselves.

Then why does God command us to repent?

We live the life of faith not in hope of life but because of our regenerated heart.

Your theology is seriously messed up. Our hearts are not 'regenerated'. They have died and been brought back, have you never read Romans 6 and John 3?

JS-POG · #35 3rd November 2009, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by bling

If there is a God why does he not make Himself obvious?

Would it be fair if a brilliant scientist could proof logically there had to be a God from scientific evidence?
Does there always have to be some doubt to the existence of God or doubt in the promises of God?
There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit:
1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being percieved independent to being dependent on God.
2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.
3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.
4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.
Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?

"And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;"

rcorlew · #36 4th November 2009, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

We most certainly can and do every day. Do you drive? You have faith that the other cars will stop at a stop sign or red light. Do you fly? You have faith that the pilot is certified and can fly the plane without complication. Do you ride a bike? You have faith that it will support your weight because it has done so in the past.

Godschild you are right on. I have used very similar illustrations in Bible study to help people see the faith they actually have every day in their lives yet fail to recognize. The favorite illustration is about bridges and how there are very few people who know all the details about a bridge and its design, strengths and weaknesses. People drive across them all the time and do not think about them at all because they have so much faith that the bridge will not fail, yet not too long ago the people in Minnesota found out that bridges do indeed fail.

We do not have blind faith, and blind faith is not required otherwise the Bible would be merely a paragraph that said something similar to "I am God and I made everything, have faith in me." The Bible has facts that are measurable in many cases, so it is not like God says that you cannot have proof. In many cases He indeed you gives you His personal testimony in your life by doing many great things for you that you could not do for yourself. He reveals Himself to us, His sheep will hear His voice, these are all events that will not require faith once they have happened, for example, I no longer have mere faith that God exists, Her has given me His personal testimony for Himself.

So now my faith does not wrestle with whether or not God exists or trying to muster enough belief that He does so that I can simply sit through a Sunday Sermon, no indeed, the faith that have now produces works so that I do not wrestle with the cross, but that I may bring others to that very same cross.

Yab Yum · #37 4th November 2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

I give grace to the kids I work with all the time, some of them still don't have faith.

You're not God.

Yab Yum · #38 4th November 2009, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

Then why does God command us to repent?

For our sanctification.

Jaws13 · #39 4th November 2009, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Yab Yum

You're not God.

The point remains: why don't people have faith when they are given grace if grace leads to faith?

Originally Posted by Yab Yum

For our sanctification.

Where is that in the Bible?

Jaws13 · #40 4th November 2009, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by rcorlew

Godschild you are right on. I have used very similar illustrations in Bible study to help people see the faith they actually have every day in their lives yet fail to recognize. The favorite illustration is about bridges and how there are very few people who know all the details about a bridge and its design, strengths and weaknesses. People drive across them all the time and do not think about them at all because they have so much faith that the bridge will not fail, yet not too long ago the people in Minnesota found out that bridges do indeed fail.

Yeah, are you kidding? I think about bridges I go over on any state highway in this state now. Otherwise, good analogy.

We do not have blind faith, and blind faith is not required otherwise the Bible would be merely a paragraph that said something similar to "I am God and I made everything, have faith in me." The Bible has facts that are measurable in many cases, so it is not like God says that you cannot have proof. In many cases He indeed you gives you His personal testimony in your life by doing many great things for you that you could not do for yourself. He reveals Himself to us, His sheep will hear His voice, these are all events that will not require faith once they have happened, for example, I no longer have mere faith that God exists, Her has given me His personal testimony for Himself.

So now my faith does not wrestle with whether or not God exists or trying to muster enough belief that He does so that I can simply sit through a Sunday Sermon, no indeed, the faith that have now produces works so that I do not wrestle with the cross, but that I may bring others to that very same cross.

Reps incoming!