My opinion is irrelevant, but this was brought up at work not long ago, and I won't say what side of the debate I was on... but it certainly was an interesting debate. Here's how it goes, and I'd like to hear your input.
For each of the following examples, assume that all sex outside of marriage is sinful.
1: But what about non-sexual physical relationships. Are we to assume that kissing is a marriage-only activity? Yet, why are two guys making out viewed far less favorably than a young, dating, heterosexual couple?
2: Marriage must include both a man and a woman, in all bible accounts. However, there are PLENTY of cases throughout the bible of polygamy. So, for the sake of this discussion, assume all sex outside of marriage is sin, but polygamy is not.
-Assuming polygamy is acceptable, is it inherently wrong for the wives to love each other as well as the husband? An example of homosexuality (or more accurately "bisexuality") within a legitimate marriage.
3: (And this one is admittedly a long shot, but still interesting to consider) Homosexuality doesn't seem to be discussed in the bible for both sexes. The only examples site that it is wrong for "men to lie with men." Obviously "Men" here aren't a "gender neutral word for humans" ... otherwise, "human men" would be prohibited from lying with "human women." If, every negative example of homosexuality is male-specific... what makes female homosexuality wrong? There is a verse mentioning women "turning from what is natural" ... but this cannot be directly linked to homosexuality, as it could easily refer to beastiality, or any of the pagan practices of the day that mixed sexuality with the supernatural. It can't directly be pinned down to female homosexuality.
Most people argue against homosexuality speaking out against gay men... but the above three topics are definitely more of a challenge.
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
My opinion is irrelevant, but this was brought up at work not long ago, and I won't say what side of the debate I was on... but it certainly was an interesting debate. Here's how it goes, and I'd like to hear your input.
For each of the following examples, assume that all sex outside of marriage is sinful.
1: But what about non-sexual physical relationships. Are we to assume that kissing is a marriage-only activity? Yet, why are two guys making out viewed far less favorably than a young, dating, heterosexual couple?
What about non-sexual relationships? The Bible doesn't condemn them.
2: Marriage must include both a man and a woman, in all bible accounts. However, there are PLENTY of cases throughout the bible of polygamy. So, for the sake of this discussion, assume all sex outside of marriage is sin, but polygamy is not.
-Assuming polygamy is acceptable, is it inherently wrong for the wives to love each other as well as the husband? An example of homosexuality (or more accurately "bisexuality") within a legitimate marriage.
*blinks* You're just going to assume it's acceptable because the Bible never says 'don't have more than one wife'? I mean, you need it to tell you that when you see a bunch of people with a bunch of wives being punished? Look at Solomon! He wasn't a shining example of a Godly man in the first place.
3: (And this one is admittedly a long shot, but still interesting to consider) Homosexuality doesn't seem to be discussed in the bible for both sexes. The only examples site that it is wrong for "men to lie with men." Obviously "Men" here aren't a "gender neutral word for humans" ... otherwise, "human men" would be prohibited from lying with "human women." If, every negative example of homosexuality is male-specific... what makes female homosexuality wrong?
Romans 1:26-7, that's what. The Bible doesn't just talk about male relations...
There is a verse mentioning women "turning from what is natural" ... but this cannot be directly linked to homosexuality, as it could easily refer to beastiality, or any of the pagan practices of the day that mixed sexuality with the supernatural. It can't directly be pinned down to female homosexuality.
It most certainly can.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
The men were doing the same thing as the women.
Most people argue against homosexuality speaking out against gay men... but the above three topics are definitely more of a challenge.
Not really. Especially that last 'challenge'. All you got to do is study the Bible, and that's not hard...
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Interesting. You brought up some points I hadn't. Although I'm not sure I agree with your response to #2... Solomon was generally considered to be a good person, and was blessed with wisdom beyond any other human. His down fall ended up being women, but it was a woman manipulating him into worshipping false gods. That was his sin... not having multiple wives inherently. Had that wife been his only wife, she would've tricked him just the same.
Similarly with his Father, king David. He had many wives and concubines, and was considered to be a good person and a friend of God's. He DID sin by lusting after another man's wife, comitting adultry with her, and plotting her husband's death so he could steal her... and that was punished severely. But his having many legitimate wives to begin with was never spoken of unfavorably.
Samson was considered blessed, yet had many affairs. Again, he was brought down by a woman, but it was specifically when he was with a woman of his enemies. His associations with all the previous women (even prostitutes) were not spoken poorly of.
In fact... the list of monogamists seems to be shorter than the list of polygamists. Noah seemed to be a monogamist. I don't think that Adam was ever specified as having children from anyone but eve, although his case was more restrictive anyway.
Then, Jesus isn't really a "monogamist" because he didn't take a wife at all (unless you believe the gnostics), and the apostles were never specified one way or the other. They didn't seem to be married during the journy, but whether they were married to 0, 1, or >1 people wasn't specified.
If you count the "good" people in the bible who were married to 1 person, not 0 or >1... monogamy seems to be quite rare in the bible.
Unless you can think of more people who were said to marry one person, and only one?
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
Also, for the record, don't get me wrong. Personally, I'm remaining single for an unspecified duration... due to some "past issues" I have a hard enough time finding one person to trust... let alone two or more. I'm not saying polygamy's "the way to go" ... it could be a horrible situation depending on the people. There are definitely functional down sides to it! I'm just saying that for people to say "polygamy is biblically objectionable" seem to be reading something different than me.
Polygamy isn't smart, IMO... but I don't think it's a sin.
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
Also, for the record, don't get me wrong. Personally, I'm remaining single for an unspecified duration... due to some "past issues" I have a hard enough time finding one person to trust... let alone two or more. I'm not saying polygamy's "the way to go" ... it could be a horrible situation depending on the people. There are definitely functional down sides to it! I'm just saying that for people to say "polygamy is biblically objectionable" seem to be reading something different than me.
Polygamy isn't smart, IMO... but I don't think it's a sin.
It may not be labeled as a sin, but causes jealousy and coveting, don't you think?
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
b. heterosexuals who fornicate are just as wrong as lesbian, gay, transexual, bisexual, bicurious, etc. yadda yadda yadda...wrong for all ...
c. Paul gives us 1 corinthians 6.9 "obsessive compulsive behavior" and being "caught up in or given to sin...Romans 1.26" from back in the day till now, still an issue some thing is "pulling your strings" sin....demon....not willingly do some thing that would destroy you....but no longer seem to care or decide for yourself....
d. solomon wrote the book of ecclesiastes, the teacher, when he screwed up and walked away from God.....all this stuff, with out God , is useless, isn't it?
e. david suffered for his bad choices, but walked out the consequences of his
sins, and learned from them , as did samson....in his last brief moment ....
we all make choices....some smoke, some drink, some sleep around with men , women, both....some choices have eternal consequences, most of us know up front, but we think we are simonized, and won't get caught...
Interesting. You brought up some points I hadn't. Although I'm not sure I agree with your response to #2... Solomon was generally considered to be a good person, and was blessed with wisdom beyond any other human. His down fall ended up being women, but it was a woman manipulating him into worshipping false gods. That was his sin... not having multiple wives inherently. Had that wife been his only wife, she would've tricked him just the same.
Similarly with his Father, king David. He had many wives and concubines, and was considered to be a good person and a friend of God's. He DID sin by lusting after another man's wife, comitting adultry with her, and plotting her husband's death so he could steal her... and that was punished severely. But his having many legitimate wives to begin with was never spoken of unfavorably.
Samson was considered blessed, yet had many affairs. Again, he was brought down by a woman, but it was specifically when he was with a woman of his enemies. His associations with all the previous women (even prostitutes) were not spoken poorly of.
Because the point wasn't to record what sin was and was not, but to record the history of Israel. When you're recording history, you don't provide a running commentary on your subject's morality if you expect to be taken seriously.
In fact... the list of monogamists seems to be shorter than the list of polygamists. Noah seemed to be a monogamist. I don't think that Adam was ever specified as having children from anyone but eve, although his case was more restrictive anyway.
Then, Jesus isn't really a "monogamist" because he didn't take a wife at all (unless you believe the gnostics), and the apostles were never specified one way or the other. They didn't seem to be married during the journy, but whether they were married to 0, 1, or >1 people wasn't specified.
If you count the "good" people in the bible who were married to 1 person, not 0 or >1... monogamy seems to be quite rare in the bible.
Unless you can think of more people who were said to marry one person, and only one?
All this is completely irrelevant in light of the information I've already provided.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
It may not be labeled as a sin, but causes jealousy and coveting, don't you think?
Polygamy certainly CAN cause jealousy, assuming those in the relationship are jealous people. However, people who have been in healthy polygamous relationships would point out that monogamy is just as likely to cause the couple to grow bored and dissatisfied with each other, which could lead to adultery.
Monogamy may not be labled a sin, but it causes dissatisfaction, cheating and adultery, don't you think?
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
Polygamy certainly CAN cause jealousy, assuming those in the relationship are jealous people. However, people who have been in healthy polygamous relationships would point out that monogamy is just as likely to cause the couple to grow bored and dissatisfied with each other, which could lead to adultery.
Then they would need to provide evidence to back that assertion.
Monogamy may not be labled a sin, but it causes dissatisfaction, cheating and adultery, don't you think?
No, I don't, and I'd like to see where you get your correlations.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Well, how about the well known statistic that currently, over 50% of heterosexual, monogamous marriages end in divorce. Not necessarily all due to cheating, but certainly the majority would be due to something considered sinful. And, to make up for the few that end in divorce for other reasons, there will always be a similar number of marriages which include dissatisfied, immoral, cheaters that have said problems, yet still do not get a divorce.
Although this is far from "perfect" evidence, it's at least as strong as the assumption that "polygamy causes jealousy and coveting."
Keep in mind, I'm not specifically supporting polygamy... I would never do it... I'm having a hard enough time finding ONE woman I can get along with... let alone multiple ones. But, for the sake of an interesting conversation, I'm trying to view monogamy from a polygamist's perspective.
Both have advantages and disadvantages, depending on the societal norms in their community. For example, in the past, there was a much smaller population on the earth, and the men in particular didn't have a very long life expectancy. Men having to fight in so many wars, and being prone to other violence left a population with many more women than men. Combined with the higher mortality rate of children, it was advantageous to pump out a larger number of children for a better chance that some would survive and prosper. Given these settings, polygamy was functionally superior. Plus, simply because there were so many more women than men, and single women really had no opportunity to take care of themselves, a husband having multiple wives was more beneficial for the each wife than her attempting to live life single.
Now adays, with much lower child mortality rates, our numbers evening out (although women still outnumber us 55:45), and the fact that it's now easier and more accepted for a person of either gender to live their lives unmarried... monogamy is proving to be more advantageous... in our current socioeconomic environment.
... that doesn't make polygamy "sinful."
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
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