Well, how about the well known statistic that currently, over 50% of heterosexual, monogamous marriages end in divorce. Not necessarily all due to cheating, but certainly the majority would be due to something considered sinful. And, to make up for the few that end in divorce for other reasons, there will always be a similar number of marriages which include dissatisfied, immoral, cheaters that have said problems, yet still do not get a divorce.
That's not evidence that monogamy is to blame. Just saying 'there's a problem here' doesn't show the root of the problem.
Although this is far from "perfect" evidence, it's at least as strong as the assumption that "polygamy causes jealousy and coveting."
Hardly. There are at least a few biblical examples of wives who DID get jealous: Rachel and Leah? And what about Abraham's fiasco? They weren't even married! Do you have statistical evidence that what you claim causes the problems actually do, just as much as jealousy and coveting in polygamy?
Keep in mind, I'm not specifically supporting polygamy... I would never do it... I'm having a hard enough time finding ONE woman I can get along with... let alone multiple ones. But, for the sake of an interesting conversation, I'm trying to view monogamy from a polygamist's perspective.
You're not presenting a compelling argument.
Both have advantages and disadvantages, depending on the societal norms in their community. For example, in the past, there was a much smaller population on the earth, and the men in particular didn't have a very long life expectancy. Men having to fight in so many wars, and being prone to other violence left a population with many more women than men. Combined with the higher mortality rate of children, it was advantageous to pump out a larger number of children for a better chance that some would survive and prosper. Given these settings, polygamy was functionally superior. Plus, simply because there were so many more women than men, and single women really had no opportunity to take care of themselves, a husband having multiple wives was more beneficial for the each wife than her attempting to live life single.
This isn't the 1800's, and just because it might be practical doesn't make it right.
Now adays, with much lower child mortality rates, our numbers evening out (although women still outnumber us 55:45), and the fact that it's now easier and more accepted for a person of either gender to live their lives unmarried... monogamy is proving to be more advantageous... in our current socioeconomic environment.
So, you're playing cultural relativist now? Sad day.
... that doesn't make polygamy "sinful."
A high propensity to make people jealous and a poor child-rearing environment doesn't make something sinful? Since when?
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
That's not evidence that monogamy is to blame. Just saying 'there's a problem here' doesn't show the root of the problem.
Just like people's assumption isn't evidence that "polygamy causes covetousness." Did Rachel and Leah fued because they were both wives? Or had they been fueding prior to that due to their sibling rivalry? As far as Abraham goes, was polygamy really the problem? Did Sarah and Hagar have problems before the rivalry between their offspring? Was it not Sarah's idea that Abraham marry Hagar as well? A similar situation could have easily arose if a single wife had given him two sons... if the wife favored one and the husband favored the other. How do you know polygamy was the issue as opposed to any normal sibling rivalry?
You're not presenting a compelling argument.
Any honest argument can be interesting or boring, depending on what viewpoint you chose to take. If you're not interested in the discussion, feel free not to be a part of it, and I'll have it with someone else.
For one, I'm bored, and I find it fascinating to look for viewpoints not commonly given consideration.
If that's not your style, than this isn't the conversation for you.
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
Just like people's assumption isn't evidence that "polygamy causes covetousness." Did Rachel and Leah fued because they were both wives?
Yes, if you recall the story.
Or had they been fueding prior to that due to their sibling rivalry? As far as Abraham goes, was polygamy really the problem? Did Sarah and Hagar have problems before the rivalry between their offspring? Was it not Sarah's idea that Abraham marry Hagar as well? A similar situation could have easily arose if a single wife had given him two sons... if the wife favored one and the husband favored the other. How do you know polygamy was the issue as opposed to any normal sibling rivalry?
Sibling rivalry? That's your explanation? I mean, maybe for Isaac and Ishmael, but for Rachel and Leah? Have you read the account? Not doing things because of the root attitude or item is a common theme in the Bible. Why would polygamy suddenly not apply?
Any honest argument can be interesting or boring, depending on what viewpoint you chose to take. If you're not interested in the discussion, feel free not to be a part of it, and I'll have it with someone else.
Do you have statistics? If not, then it's not much of a discussion.
For one, I'm bored, and I find it fascinating to look for viewpoints not commonly given consideration.
If that's not your style, than this isn't the conversation for you.
So I HAVE to take a viewpoint that's not really considered for a conversation between us to be interesting? Goodness, that's boring.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Sibling rivalry? That's your explanation? I mean, maybe for Isaac and Ishmael, but for Rachel and Leah? Have you read the account? Not doing things because of the root attitude or item is a common theme in the Bible. Why would polygamy suddenly not apply?
It could apply... but in every case where a polygamist relationship goes wrong, there seems to be another, more likely psychological culpret for the behavior. Had Rachel and Leah not been sisters, I'll bet they may have treated each other differently. However, from the very beginning, the older sister treated the younger poorly. The husband never even wanted to marry the older sister... she was just pushed on him. Of course, that's going to cause some significant problems.
Is it "polygamy" that caused the problem? ...or arranging a marriage with a mean woman no one wanted for a good reason?
So I HAVE to take a viewpoint that's not really considered for a conversation between us to be interesting? Goodness, that's boring.
Don't HAVE to do anything. However, I posed an abnormal question. I'm aware of the "normal" viewpoint. If all you want to do is state the normal viewpoint... there's not a whole lot of a point. We know. If you have something more to add, good. I'd like that. But there's really no point in discussing the same standard opinion we've already discussed dozens of times in the past. (Not you and I, of course, but elsewhere)
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient." (Titus 1:6)
"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach," (1 Timothy 3:2)
"A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well." (1 Tim. 3:12)
It's considered the perfect standard (asides from celibacy) or example of Godly conduct in regards to marriage and family. A man with more than one wife isn't a perfect man. God's Word says we've got to be law-abiding, and polygamy is illegal (it's bigamy).
"Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good," (Titus 3:1)
"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you." (Hebrews 13:17)
"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right." (2 Peter 2:13-14)
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (Romans 13:1)
It could apply... but in every case where a polygamist relationship goes wrong, there seems to be another, more likely psychological culpret for the behavior. Had Rachel and Leah not been sisters, I'll bet they may have treated each other differently. However, from the very beginning, the older sister treated the younger poorly. The husband never even wanted to marry the older sister... she was just pushed on him. Of course, that's going to cause some significant problems.
In groups that practice polygamy now, the marriages are arranged. That will likely cause the same problems.
Is it "polygamy" that caused the problem? ...or arranging a marriage with a mean woman no one wanted for a good reason?
Polygamy certainly played a role: there would be no mess if there was only one wife.
Don't HAVE to do anything. However, I posed an abnormal question. I'm aware of the "normal" viewpoint. If all you want to do is state the normal viewpoint... there's not a whole lot of a point. We know. If you have something more to add, good. I'd like that. But there's really no point in discussing the same standard opinion we've already discussed dozens of times in the past. (Not you and I, of course, but elsewhere)
Obviously people don't know, or I wouldn't hear questions as to whether or not God supports polygamy in non-Christian circles.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient." (Titus 1:6)
"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach," (1 Timothy 3:2)
"A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well." (1 Tim. 3:12)
And, these speak much more strongly for the monogamy. However, for the sake of conversation: Are you sure this means "husband to (no more than) one?" Could it not mean "husband to (no less than) one?"
Considering such verses discusses the advantage of remaining single, then gives room for one wife, it certainly does indicate that "if not 0, then 1 is best." However, IIRC, such verses were specified to be of the opinion of the author, specifically not a mandate from God.
The writer spoke very highly of men remaining single, however God himself said that it is NOT good for a man to remain alone.
(Again, this ISN'T to say that polygamy is right for everyone, and it certainly wouldn't be my personal preference. Just exploring into different viewpoints)
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
In groups that practice polygamy now, the marriages are arranged. That will likely cause the same problems.
I know a few mormons who would say otherwise. (I'm not mormon, btw.)
Polygamy certainly played a role: there would be no mess if there was only one wife.
ORLY? He'd worked for 7 years (I believe) for the hand of Rachel... and at the last minute was given Leah instead. Were polygamy not an option, do you think he would've just been OK with "nope, I lied, you don't get Rachel, you just get Leah. You wanna work another 7 years anyway?"
I doubt that, very much. And, if you were Leah... you marry Jacob who ends up working hard for 7 years to marry your sister, that's a bit of a complicating factor, don't you think? It's more than "taking another wife" ... it's showing that all that hard work he did was to marry your sister, and he'd work another 7 years to marry her anyway because he never wanted you in the first place. That's bound to cause some psychological issues.
It's not just "taking another wife" ... it's how the older one was valued so much less than the younger. Even if the older didn't already have issues, this would be sure to cause strife.
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
I know a few mormons who would say otherwise. (I'm not mormon, btw.)
Mormonism has outlawed polygamy for the last century... so that's quite irrelevant.
ORLY? He'd worked for 7 years (I believe) for the hand of Rachel... and at the last minute was given Leah instead. Were polygamy not an option, do you think he would've just been OK with "nope, I lied, you don't get Rachel, you just get Leah. You wanna work another 7 years anyway?"
What, you think there would have been the same problem of favoritism and bickering between wives if there was only one?
I doubt that, very much. And, if you were Leah... you marry Jacob who ends up working hard for 7 years to marry your sister, that's a bit of a complicating factor, don't you think? It's more than "taking another wife" ... it's showing that all that hard work he did was to marry your sister, and he'd work another 7 years to marry her anyway because he never wanted you in the first place. That's bound to cause some psychological issues.
It's not just "taking another wife" ... it's how the older one was valued so much less than the younger. Even if the older didn't already have issues, this would be sure to cause strife.
None of this negates the assertion that there would have been no problem between wives if there was only one.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
None of this negates the assertion that there would have been no problem between wives if there was only one.
And, there would be no bickering from wives at all if no one ever married. Problem solved. Marriage is sinful because wives bicker?
Honestly, if polygamy wasn't an option... do you think Jacob and Leah would have had a happy marriage if Jacob had worked for 7 years for Leah's hand... and just been given Leah and told to "deal with it?" Honestly, how do you think that marriage would have survived?
__________________ John 17:1-26
Galations 5:19-25 1 Corinthians 13:1
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