But what puts that one spouse in the position to be deciding when tough love is what's truly best? Certainly there are objective cases where an obvious line has been crossed, like adultery. But what about the cases where the "failure" is more subjective. Say for example he's not being the spiritual leader of the house. I've seen tough love measures suggested in that very case, even though there is no objective standard for what being the spiritual leader looks like. What I'm getting at, and which sort of ties back around to the OP, is that we can have a tendency to mask what's really a self motivated desire in the guise of what's best for the other person or best for the marriage as a whole.
I agree with the bolded part and realize that can be our natural tendency, that is why we need to ask for God's guidance and discernment and compare our 'real life' situations to the Bible as much as possible. I believe the sort of things we need to strongly stand up against are things that cause damage to the marriage...as you said, adultery is the best example. Other things should be addressed as they come up in a non-confrontative manner, but in a way that points out the harm in what is going on. It is when even after those conversations, the behavior continues--that is when the lack of care then becomes the real issue.
Not being the spiritual leader of the house? Personally, I don't believe Christ forces a person into maturity...it is a process, so I don't believe it would be following God's principles to use tough love in that case. It just seems contrary to the Bible to me.
__________________ Don't just pretend that you love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Stand on the side of good. Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring one another- Romans 12: 9-10
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Last edited by mkgal1; 5th November 2009 at 08:05 PM.
Aint even a question my wife is the leader here. Im not sure what is a spiritual leader but she decides everything about church and where and how much we give and who do we visit and all that. She is down there almost every day and thats some other time where she is thinking Im doin wrong. Last couple days just readin here on this place. But I got no problem with her leading she handles stuff better then I could anyways.
I agree that it is best not get into any kind of adutry or even porn is going to kill off the marriages even the best ones. In my church it is a great big problem that the men are looking at that. Its adultry I think.
If this were even remotely true....why do most statistics point to christians having a higher rate of divorce than even atheists?
I would not expect such an answer from a Christian and it saddens me that you don't understand the power of God, however I will answer you with as much wisdom as God has given me.
The Word of God and the principles of Chrisitian living does not change just because of our human failures. If your statics are true it simply points out the failures in those individuals to commit themselves to the Word of God.
It is not hard to allow God to help you to live as He has designed us to live as married couples. We make things hard on ourselves when we fail to acknowlege Him in all that we do and yield to the Holy Spirit when He tries to instruct us on how we are to act in situations that causes problems in our marriage.
I acknowledge the fact that christians who are married experience the same issues as others. The problem is that it takes both individuals to come to God with a willingness to resolve their issues; after all a marriage is not made up of one person and you can't be one in the Spirit of marriage if one of either party is not willing to allow God to work out their situation.
Amos 3:3 states "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
Our Lord God is the answer to all of our problems and it is not a fairytale to believe that if we allow Him to guide us, in the midst of our marital problems things would be much better and very possilbly cease this high rate of divorce which you have stated.
Matthews 18:20 "For where there are two or three gathered in My Name there am I in the midst of them.
If the stats are not helpful in light of whats being discussed here, then that implies even MORE marriages are horrible and makes the picture far worse than it is. It seems you are saying there are tons of folks out there just hanging on because of the formality of the marriage. So if they got divorces we'd be at what, 60%, 70%?
I cant do anything about that, but if I could Id sure start with the statistics, because, if you set out to cure something, best take care of the curable ones first. The way to see which are curabel is check the stats.
Yes, I DO believe that more marriages are troubled than are truly thriving, and that if all that were struggling were to get a divorce the stats would be at more like 60 to 70 percent. But I guess you are right that the marriages that are still together are the best place start to expect a cure.
I believe our standards for marriage are terribly low, and that needs to be addressed from within the church with a true spirit of desiring to heal the marriages, not simply put band-aids on them. I believe it is a spiritual issue in most cases, where one or both spouses may say they are desiring to follow God's precepts, but are failing to do so. Individuals are missing out, families are missing out, churches are missing out, and the testimony of the Christian community is missing out. I often wonder where the church is in all this, and why it isn't seen as the issue it is.
__________________ Don't just pretend that you love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Stand on the side of good. Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring one another- Romans 12: 9-10
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Last edited by mkgal1; 5th November 2009 at 08:06 PM.
The problem is that it takes both individuals to come to God with a willingness to resolve their issues; after all a marriage is not made up of one person and you can't be one in the Spirit of marriage if one of either party is not willing to allow God to work out their situation.
Amos 3:3 states "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
Our Lord God is the answer to all of our problems and it is not a fairytale to believe that if we allow Him to guide us, in the midst of our marital problems things would be much better and very possilbly cease this high rate of divorce which you have stated.
In my opinion, those bolded statements above sum up MOST marital issues. The spouse that is unwilling to go to God to resolve the couples issues is not only getting their own life off track....they are-- at minimum--causing a distraction for the other spouse.
__________________ Don't just pretend that you love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Stand on the side of good. Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring one another- Romans 12: 9-10
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Chaz on this issue we should go on the road as a team! I start off by giving some information then asking a question, you answer the question which coincides with the scriptures in my study of biblical love. Then we repeat it again. Here is a sample
Stan’s question How do we get going in the direction of acquiring those 1st Corinthians attributes?
Chaz’s answer "you can't fully love someone else until you not only know in your head on an intellectual basis but in your heart on an experiential basis, God's love for you".
Stan I think that one way to know in your “….heart on a experiential basis, God’s love for us,” is by believing God’s word. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Chaz I consider the verses about not just hearing God's Word but doing it to apply here. Instead of believing God's Word I like to use the term (made up) of beLIVING God's Word
Stan I think as a beginning step it is important to believe that God loves you so that you can graduate to the next step. One of the steps after believing is DOING! You were right on Chaz by wording it a little different “beLIVING” I think we are on the same tract. I don’t know how to fully explain it but DOING/LIVING God’s word strengthens one to advance in love. I came to this conclusion by the scriptures below:
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
This information clarifies one of my OP’s points. That point is that Love American style could benefit from adding the biblical steps to love. Believing that God loves you and DOING/LIVING your life by God’s word is something that I think is overlooked in most of America’s ideas of love.
Thanks Chaz, got any more statements about
How do we get going in the direction of acquiring those 1st Corinthians attributes?
I think that Alexander’s quote below is also adding to my OP. Thank you Alexander for that summary statement!
Quote by AlexanderJC As long as people downplay the individual principles in the bible that instructs us how to live and guides us to the truth about how Christ wants us to live we can't live together and expect our marriage to be ok.
Originally posted my MKGAL I agree with Psalm. If one spouse it working AGAINST the marriage....and not in the true spirit of acting in obedience to God and a desire to please Him....then intimacy is broken. How can two walk in the same direction when there are two different goals in mind?
There just seems to be a lack of balance from within the body of Christ when aiding couples in crisis. Instead of seeing the sins for that they are....there is an emphasis on the need to suffer....endure.....bear all things. Sin kills everything it touches....how can a marriage be called to endure that? That seems to be in conflict to Matthew 12:25 that says: 25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
It is just a struggle to figure out when grace and mercy need to be demonstrated, and when there needs to be a healthy distance because of one spouse's disobedience to God. That is something we need to be attuned to God for. Only He knows the hearts of others.
MKGAL Good post and I appreciate your scripture reference!
I hope you do not think that my OP is advocating a blind eye to sin. If there is someone you love that is sinning I feel that you should take any and all Biblical actions to bring about a change. My position is NOT about having someone walk on you to the point of destroying you.
I am trying to get biblical information obout Love so that information will be acted upon which will imporove marriages.
Maybe a recent post by one of our sisters will help explain my statemebnts above. The post #125 is by Joyful11 on her thread titled “Responding to an overwhelmed husband”I have reprinted her post below.
Originally posted by Joyful11 I made my husband leave the home a week ago. The two of us cried for 2 hours before he left. I know we both deeply love each other and neither wants to live without the other. But I cannot give my heart to a divided man. I don't want to be one of two. If I'm not his everything (womanwise), then he can't have me.
Yesterday, my husband came to spend time with the kids. He wanted me to spend time with them and have a "normal" night. A PICKIN' NORMAL NIGHT. How does he want me to do that when he's living the life he's living? Every time I turn around, I find out more truth. Every time I turn around, he's covering something else up. The man has soooo may secrets that there's no way I can trust him. Sure....he can be "normal" around me....cause I'm the same woman he married....I don't have another guy on the side. He isn't doing anything he says.....let me tell you about not doing anything according to him.....he has a secret cell phone that he talks to a girl that he's not dating on????? He talked to this girl for 20 minutes the other night after midnight???? I had him remove my name from his credit card and the moment he did it, he changed the password on the online account for the card. Why? Certainly not cause I"m untrustworthy.....it's because he has a lot of stuff to hide. Let's see...more not doing anything.....he told me he was going to a movie with a friend one night and I found IM's from his "non-girlfriend" asking him if he was at the movie yet....does this sound like he's doing nothing to you? His excuse is that she's with her boyfriend and they never slept together and are just friends. Now come on....this man who was totally repentant after his first affair and was so tender with my heart KNOWS that being friends with a girl you kissed while married is NOT OK. I think he really thinks it's not as bad as when he was in an actual "physical affair". Honestly....an emotional affair is worse. He never loved the first girl. This time....he willingly called this girl Baby and said intimate things to her....it's what he wanted.....way worse than sex that meant nothing.
Ok....so here's the revelation from God....
After the conversation about spending time together, I told my husband that God is just waiting to take the mess he's made and make something beautiful out of it. He disagreed and said God doesn't want a relationship with him. He said that whenever he cries out to God, he's silent. My reply was....cause you are asking God what you just asked me about acting normal and spending time with the family.....What my husband had asked me was to turn my back on his sin and just be normal. He wants the same thing from God. When he cries out to God, it's not in repentance....he comes to God STILL clinging to all his baggage...his sin. God doesn't want a divided heart. He wants his whole heart.....where he's ditched the sinful life and comes to God totally stripped. And that's what I want too....I don't want a divided husband. If I can't have his whole heart, I don't want him. God is a jealous God. I am a jealous wife. Marriage is the perfect analogy of God's relationship with the church. He wants 100% commitment or no commitment at all. We can't have one foot in the door and one foot still in sin. Just like you can't have one foot in a marriage and one foot holding onto a sinful adulterous life. I have no desire for a marriage like that.
So here are my thoughts....my earthly mind (and dignity) says, don't ever give that guy another chance....he had his chance. The desire for fairness and justice in me says, he doesn't deserve you. You deserve better, which I do. And I know I have the right to divorce. But is that what God's calling me to do? I don't hear him saying that to me yet. Maybe it's because I know we still love each other. Maybe it's because I see (and have experienced) the potential in my husband....that when he fully submits to Christ...and gets the help he needs, he will be one awesome man.
So what I thought today was....what does God do when we walk away from him? That's what I want to do with my husband. When the Israelites walked away from God, he remained faithful. He gave them over to their sin while they were in rebellion. But when they repented, he was waiting to take them back. Now I think God allows for divorce for infidelity because he KNOWS the pain of betrayal. I can hardly stand it. Honestly, it's much easier to say "I'm out....I don't deserve this" than to say "I'm sticking to the commitment I made for life with this man. I won't allow him to have a relationship with me while he's in sin. But I will remain faithful. And if he gets to a healthy place and God calls me to take him back, I will obey that."
I'm not saying that either decision that a betrayed spouse has to make is better than or more spiritual than the other. Being betrayed by the person who is supposed to love you most is the worst pain ever.
I'm in a place now where I feel like I'm in such limbo. It would almost be easier if my husband said "I hate you and never wanna see you again." Because knowing that he loves me and yet continues in sin is torture. But I also know that he's continuing in sin because his shame and guilt is so great that the only way he can take away the pain he's feeling is to continue in sin. He's not trying to hurt me. I think knowing that I'm feeling such pain is so great that he just turns his back on me so he can still function. But I have to tell you.....after being soooo close and intimate with someone for 20 years...spending all your time together, knowing everything the other does....and being so tight...and then all of a sudden he's gone, and I have NO CLUE where he is or what he's doing...yet I know he's spending time with another girl and lying whenever he's cornered...it's the most excruciating pain I've ever felt. Do any of you ever curl up in a ball and weep so hard that you have to shake your body to try to relieve some of the pain? And it doesn't go away. It just hurts so much. To know that you were everything to someone, and now he just lets you feel like nothing...he just lets you fear what he's doing. I can't even explain it to you. Those of you who've been through it know.
I wished that I was as spiritually mature as Joyful, but I am not!
I would not expect such an answer from a Christian and it saddens me that you don't understand the power of God, however I will answer you with as much wisdom as God has given me.
The Word of God and the principles of Chrisitian living does not change just because of our human failures. If your statics are true it simply points out the failures in those individuals to commit themselves to the Word of God.
It is not hard to allow God to help you to live as He has designed us to live as married couples. We make things hard on ourselves when we fail to acknowlege Him in all that we do and yield to the Holy Spirit when He tries to instruct us on how we are to act in situations that causes problems in our marriage.
I acknowledge the fact that christians who are married experience the same issues as others. The problem is that it takes both individuals to come to God with a willingness to resolve their issues; after all a marriage is not made up of one person and you can't be one in the Spirit of marriage if one of either party is not willing to allow God to work out their situation.
Amos 3:3 states "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
Our Lord God is the answer to all of our problems and it is not a fairytale to believe that if we allow Him to guide us, in the midst of our marital problems things would be much better and very possilbly cease this high rate of divorce which you have stated.
Matthews 18:20 "For where there are two or three gathered in My Name there am I in the midst of them.
First, don't question my understanding of the power of God merely because I question you. You are not God....you are man. Faults I may find in your beliefs do not reflect on what I know of God...humility is a virtue,my brother.
So those that divorce failed to let God guide them? That's what I'm reading...that a successful marriage just requires God. My argument is that, if that were true, wouldn't christians be more successful at marriage that atheists or agnostics or those of other faiths? To the bolded part, doesn't that insinuate that non-believers or those married to non-believers are not capable of having a successful marriage?
__________________
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Do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with your God
The last temptation that's the greatest treason, is to do the right deed for the wrong reason. T.S. Eliot
I hope you do not think that my OP is advocating a blind eye to sin. If there is someone you love that is sinning I feel that you should take any and all Biblical actions to bring about a change. My position is NOT about having someone walk on you to the point of destroying you.
I am trying to get biblical information obout Love so that information will be acted upon which will imporove marriages.
Maybe a recent post by one of our sisters will help explain my statemebnts above. The post #125 is by Joyful11 on her thread titled “Responding to an overwhelmed husband”I have reprinted her post below.
I wished that I was as spiritually mature as Joyful, but I am not!
I guess I am just a bit sensitive when I hear "love suffers long...and endures long"
Joyful1 simply amazes me....I too wish I were as mature as she is (sorry if I am embarrassing you, Joyful1). Hers is an excellent example of how we can set boundaries out of love, yet still love from a safe distance.
I think Chaz's comment about knowing from experience how God loves us and living it out is really the heart of the issue. I heard it said awhile ago that as we understand more about ourselves and grow in humility....the gap between us and God actually grows and we see the cross as much larger to bridge that gap.
__________________ Don't just pretend that you love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Stand on the side of good. Love each other with genuine affection, and take delight in honoring one another- Romans 12: 9-10
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I think, too, going with what Chaz said, that the longer we're Christians, the more we actually see the sin in our lives and understand the seriousness of it all.
__________________ In memory of Sean. We'll always love you. We'll always miss you. We'll never forget.
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You are everything I never knew I always wanted.....
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If i take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. Psalm 139:7-10
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