authentic Jews need reply...

JudaicChristian · #31 5th November 2009, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Catherineanne

Non sequitur.

Twice born does not denote not born into the faith. It denotes born into the faith twice.

I think he is referring to the term "born again."

JudaicChristian · #32 5th November 2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Catherineanne

I agree that being a Christian is different from being a Jew.

However, that is not the point at issue; we are not discussing what Jewish identity is. The assertion was made that we cannot be born Christian. Quite simply, we can.

Just as a Jew can be born a Jew into a Jewish family and home, so can a Christian be born a Christian into a Christian family and home.

Hebrews are born Hebrews. Jews are of the religion of Judaism or Abraham.

Desert Rose · #33 5th November 2009, 03:37 PM

I believe CatherineAnne and Heber got my question right

actually... could it be that different denominations have it differently? I appears from what i learned so far that most protestant denoms presume a child to be not a christian until he grows up and proclaims faith, but Catholic, EO, etc. see a baby born into catholic family as christian until proven otherwise, so to speak.

JC, all due respect, you are a bit confused, probably my fault, i didnt explain it properly.Check the post on the prev page.
I gave an example of myself . Nationality is one thing, religion is the other. Halachic jews in Eretz are born not only hebrews, but jews( religious affiliation of a newborn is written as judaism in birth cert) I understand that separation on church and state makes Birth certs in the western countries miss the part"religion"

I was wondering if it is the same with any christian denominations.

anisavta · #34 5th November 2009, 05:40 PM

From my understanding I think it depends on their definition of Christian. Those that see Christianity as a religion - like a title consider a person a Christian from birth if the parents are Christian as a title. Does that make sense? Like, "we are a Christian church so of course our congregants are Christians." On the other hand, a denomination that considers Christianity a relationship with Christ and must be declared through acknowledgment of that relationship does not consider everyone a Christian just because they are members or attend that denomination. It is a personal decision.

SGM4HIM · #35 5th November 2009, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Catherineanne

Non sequitur.

Twice born does not denote not born into the faith. It denotes born into the faith twice.

John 3: 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.

ContraMundum · #36 5th November 2009, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Catherineanne

Non sequitur.

Twice born does not denote not born into the faith. It denotes born into the faith twice.

What on earth do you mean?

"Ye must be born again". One is not born a Christian. One is born a baby. One requires the new birth to be a Christian- this is Jesus talking.

One may be born into a Christian family- but that doesn't make one a Christian. If you live in a garage that doesn't make you a car.

ContraMundum · #37 5th November 2009, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Catherineanne

Nonsense. I was born a Christian, and so was my daughter. So were my parents, grandparents and great grandparents, back into history and beyond.

Just as the Lord was born a Jew, into a Jewish home, so was I born a Christian, into a Christian home.

Being Jewish is a matter of DNA, being Christian is a matter of faith. You can be born into a Christian faily, but still "ye must be born again".*

If faith has to be adopted by volition only by consenting adults, why on earth did God go to all that trouble to choose a people for his own, and make Abraham the Father of them?

I don't think anyone here is saying that faith is only by volition by consenting adults. Even infants can have faith, as the scriptures teach.

*(Have you re-read the BCP recently on this?)

ContraMundum · #38 5th November 2009, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

I believe CatherineAnne and Heber got my question right actually... could it be that different denominations have it differently? I appears from what i learned so far that most protestant denoms presume a child to be not a christian until he grows up and proclaims faith, but Catholic, EO, etc. see a baby born into catholic family as christian until proven otherwise, so to speak.

You're pretty close, actually, except in the RC, EO etc faith one born to a Christian family becomes a Christian through baptism (the sign of the covenant and grace is given to the child by God etc). One then grows in the faith (if raised in the faith) and in the Western rite one both claims and proclaims their faith at confirmation. There's a number of parallels in this with Judaism (the life cycle of circumcision and bar or bat mitzvah etc.). I feel that this is not the place to discuss this so that's all I will say on that.

Catherineanne · #39 6th November 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

I believe CatherineAnne and Heber got my question right actually... could it be that different denominations have it differently? I appears from what i learned so far that most protestant denoms presume a child to be not a christian until he grows up and proclaims faith, but Catholic, EO, etc. see a baby born into catholic family as christian until proven otherwise, so to speak.

Yes, I think you are right. Some modern Christians take the view that nobody can be considered a Christian until they have made a personal commitment to the Lord. This makes no sense in the context of a continuum from the OT times into the New. Just as Jewish people are born into their faith, so are second generation and subsequent Christian people born into ours.

Christ was born into his faith, and was a part of it from before his birth. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. How can we then say that such experiences are not real, until experienced by someone with personal volition, as an adult? How can anyone be born again if they were not born in the first place?

JC, all due respect, you are a bit confused, probably my fault, i didnt explain it properly.Check the post on the prev page.
I gave an example of myself . Nationality is one thing, religion is the other. Halachic jews in Eretz are born not only hebrews, but jews( religious affiliation of a newborn is written as judaism in birth cert) I understand that separation on church and state makes Birth certs in the western countries miss the part"religion"

I was wondering if it is the same with any christian denominations.

In England, the Church of England is the established Church. I was born in England, at a time before we started to call ourselves a multi cultural nation.

As such, born into the established church of my home country, baptised into the faith at 4 weeks old, and brought up within it ever since, it is very difficult to say that there was ever a time before I considered myself, and actually was, a Christian. Quite simply, it is as much a part of who I am, and as a result who I have brought my daughter up to be, as for any Jewish person, brought up as a Jew in a Jewish home and family. Ditto Moslems, and any other faith.

I take the point that Judaism is distinct, because of the effect of the diaspora, but in this situation there are similarities.

Catherineanne · #40 6th November 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by ContraMundum

You're pretty close, actually, except in the RC, EO etc faith one born to a Christian family becomes a Christian through baptism (the sign of the covenant and grace is given to the child by God etc).

You also are pretty close.

A sacrament, such as baptism, is an outward and visible sign of an inner and spiritual grace. The baptism fulfills what is already a reality, just as the ordination of a priest fulfills what God has already spoken in relation to that person's priesthood.

Therefore, it is possible to be born a Christian, in a Christian family, and to be then baptised as a sacrament of that Christianity.

Again, the pattern is Judaism. A Jewish boy does not become Jewish when he is circumcised, but is such by virtue of having a Jewish mother. The circumcision is sacramental; the outward expression of the already existing spiritual relationship between him and his God.