God never told us to use the internet either so I guess we shouldn't do that.
I think it's wonderful to set aside a certain time during the year to reflect on the Nativity of Christ but if someone else doesn't want to or gets all bent out of shape about the particular day then so be it. Colossians 2 says that we should not judge others in such things. Let no man judge you...
It is true that the earliest Christians did not celebrate Christmas because pagans were generally the only ones who celebrated birthdays but the decision to celebrate the Nativity ocurred prior to the selection of a date. The date was eventually chosen to discourage people from celebrating the pagan holiday.
__________________ Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. - G.K. Chesterton
=wildboar;53413129]God never told us to use the internet either so I guess we shouldn't do that.
God didn't tell us not to do drugs either. But dont' you think the principles found in the Bible can give us insight in God's thinking? Jesus DID tell us to celebrate his death--through which we get forgiveness of sins. Surely He didn't just forget to tell us to celebrate His birth. Again, wouldn't Jesus' Father at least tell us the day of His Son's birth if he wanted us to celebrate it?
I think it's wonderful to set aside a certain time during the year to reflect on the Nativity of Christ but if someone else doesn't want to or gets all bent out of shape about the particular day then so be it. Colossians 2 says that we should not judge others in such things. Let no man judge you...
I agree, we should not judge anyone--whether it's drugs or Christmas. God is the Judge. But we should judge whether we should participate in any of these things. That is the purpose of this web site--to hear both sides of the matter so we can make a personal decision.
It is true that the earliest Christians did not celebrate Christmas because pagans were generally the only ones who celebrated birthdays
Thanks for acknowledging this.
but the decision to celebrate the Nativity ocurred prior to the selection of a date. The date was eventually chosen to discourage people from celebrating the pagan holiday.
But is that what happened? Did people leave the pagan aspects behind. What would they have adopted as Christmas activities? There were no activities to adopt because the holiday didn't exist before. So obviously they would default to the activities that they had celebrated on that day every year since they were born--activities designed to encourage the gods to return and make the days longer.
The real reason for this fusion is that the Roman empire was disintegrating and the emperors were desperate to create unity and solidarity among their citizens. The Christians, although viciously persecuted, had grown to a significant percentage of the citizens. So Constantine fused Christianity and paganism to create a new state. It worked quite well politically, but not very well for Christianity. Although the persecution stopped and church leaders were given favors, the true worship was defiled. Mass conversions of pagans and adopting pagan practices and holidays (Christmas) turned true Christianity into the Roman Catholic church and the darkest ages of human history.
__________________ When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth he either ceases to be mistaken or begins to be dishonest.
So Constantine fused Christianity and paganism to create a new state. It worked quite well politically, but not very well for Christianity. Although the persecution stopped and church leaders were given favors, the true worship was defiled. Mass conversions of pagans and adopting pagan practices and holidays (Christmas) turned true Christianity into the Roman Catholic church and the darkest ages of human history.
Ouch. Pardon, but would you like a board to swat me with, steve4.truth? I've heard this asserted many times by non-catholics, and I suppose its necessary for Protestants to attempt to show the Catholic Church as a pagan institution, because the alternative is...
Well, anyway, if you have any evidence to support your claims, please feel free to post it. For my part, though, I will say that Constantine was an emporer, not a theologian. I find it exceedingly hard to believe that a man who was not even baptized until a week before his death, emperor or not, would have such power as to be able to cause the Church to abandon orthodoxy. All he did, remember, is pass the Edict of Milan in 313 AD which legalized the practice of Christianity; he did not make Christianity the state religion. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that if Constantine had been - "fusing" as you say - paganism into Christianity, that the bishops and Church fathers (even a few of them) of the time did not protest?
It's true that Constantine was instrumental in convening the Council of Nicea, and that he was present at its sessions (Roman Emperors - DIR Constantine I, see paragraph entitled "The Arian Controvery, the Council of Nicea, and its Aftermath), but St. Athenasius writes that Constantine did not hamper, or contribute to the discussions (and considering he was exiled by Constantine, he'd be one to be critical about him).
Now, I'm not so sure why you oppose Christmas on the basis of the Father not giving us a date, but then state that "Jesus DID tell us to celebrate his death--through which we get forgiveness of sins"; but He didn't give us a date on that either.
As for the practices that occured during Christmas, it depends on what region you're talking about. In Jerusalem, the ceremony was held in the Church of the Nativity and included a procession from Bethlahem to the Church of the Nativity (see writings of Silva of Bordeaux). Also, in Jerusalem, it was held on the 6th of January - modern day Epiphany - and lasted for eight days (strictly speaking, it still does).
God didn't tell us not to do drugs either. But dont' you think the principles found in the Bible can give us insight in God's thinking? Jesus DID tell us to celebrate his death--through which we get forgiveness of sins. Surely He didn't just forget to tell us to celebrate His birth. Again, wouldn't Jesus' Father at least tell us the day of His Son's birth if he wanted us to celebrate it?
Drugs can be beneficial or harmful and the point of Scripture is not to give us principles for living. The point is certainly not to try to bind the consciences of our brothers and sisters in Christ. If God has not forbidden something it is sinful for me to try to tell someone else what they are doing is sin even if I don't feel comfortable doing it. Jesus told us to celebrate the Eucharist and the early church did so once a week or more. He never said to celebrate Good Friday but I consider it to be very profitable spirituall to do so. Not many celebrate Advent anymore, stores start putting Christmas junk out in October but the celebration of Advent which culminates in the celebration of the Nativity is very spiritually profitable as well. Why wouldn't it be beneficial to celebrate when God the Son took on human flesh as was born?
If we did away with everything in the church that people abused then we wouldn't have anything left. But the problem is not in the celebration of Christ's nativity. Pastors everywhere distort God's Word in their sermons but that doesn't mean we should throw away the Scriptures. If you don't want to celebrate the Nativity then nobody is going to make you. But if you are going to try to tell others that they cannot you are practicing idolatry. God never commanded us not to celebrate the Nativity and you are creating your own laws and putting yourself in the place of God.
__________________ Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. - G.K. Chesterton
=judechild;53429359]Ouch. Pardon, but would you like a board to swat me with, steve4.truth? I've heard this asserted many times by non-catholics, and I suppose its necessary for Protestants to attempt to show the Catholic Church as a pagan institution, because the alternative is...
I'm sorry I stated it that way. It was not meant as an attack. however, I did not invent the term "dark ages", and while I have many catholic friends, the Catholic church ruled during the dark ages.
Well, anyway, if you have any evidence to support your claims, please feel free to post it. For my part, though, I will say that Constantine was an emporer, not a theologian. I find it exceedingly hard to believe that a man who was not even baptized until a week before his death, emperor or not, would have such power as to be able to cause the Church to abandon orthodoxy. All he did, remember, is pass the Edict of Milan in 313 AD which legalized the practice of Christianity; he did not make Christianity the state religion. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that if Constantine had been - "fusing" as you say - paganism into Christianity, that the bishops and Church fathers (even a few of them) of the time did not protest? It's true that Constantine was instrumental in convening the Council of Nicea, and that he was present at its sessions (Roman Emperors - DIR Constantine I, see paragraph entitled "The Arian Controvery, the Council of Nicea, and its Aftermath), but St. Athenasius writes that Constantine did not hamper, or contribute to the discussions (and considering he was exiled by Constantine, he'd be one to be critical about him).
Very interesting site, thanks for posting it. I see what you mean about the debate about how involved Constantine was in the council of Nicea. I know other sources claim that He proposed the exact wording of the creed. I guess there's 2 sides to every story. Here are some other quotes from that same article: "Constantine's profession of Christianity was not an unmixed blessing to the church. Constantine used the church as an instrument of imperial policy, imposed upon it his imperial ideology, and thus deprived it of much of the independence which it had previously enjoyed. " "By entrusting some government functions to the Christian clergy he actually made the church an agency of the imperial government."
Now, I'm not so sure why you oppose Christmas on the basis of the Father not giving us a date, but then state that "Jesus DID tell us to celebrate his death--through which we get forgiveness of sins"; but He didn't give us a date on that either.
Actually, when Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me", he had just finished celebrating the Jewish passover before instituting the "Lords supper", a christian celebration wherein the wine and bread are passed. Passover dates are found in the Law of Moses on the 14th of Abib (later called Nisan). It's easy to convert this to our calendar as the Jews do.
As for the practices that occured during Christmas, it depends on what region you're talking about. In Jerusalem, the ceremony was held in the Church of the Nativity and included a procession from Bethlahem to the Church of the Nativity (see writings of Silva of Bordeaux). Also, in Jerusalem, it was held on the 6th of January - modern day Epiphany - and lasted for eight days (strictly speaking, it still does)
Ok, but those activities were instituted afterwards. The Roman festivals were very popular and there is not question that pagan practices dominated. Wikepedia under "Christmas" says, "Modern Christmas customs include: gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; and Yule logs and various foods from Germanic feasts.[16]Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan traditions had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,....the Yule boar was a common feature of medieval Christmas feasts. Caroling also became popular, and was originally a group of dancers who sang. The group was composed of a lead singer and a ring of dancers that provided the chorus. Various writers of the time condemned caroling as lewd, indicating that the unruly traditions of Saturnalia and Yule may have continued in this form.[26] "Misrule"—drunkenness, promiscuity, gambling—was also an important aspect of the festival. In England, gifts were exchanged on New Year's Day, and there was special Christmas ale.[26"
__________________ When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth he either ceases to be mistaken or begins to be dishonest.
wildboar;53432262]Drugs can be beneficial or harmful and the point of Scripture is not to give us principles for living.
Let me specify: Doing Cocaine and Meth is not condemned in the Bible. Neither is sniffing spray paint But don't you think scriptures like 2 Cor. 7:1 and laws against drunkenness provide a glimpse into God's feelings on the subject? And I have to disagree with your statement that "the point of Scripture is not to give us principles for living." 2 Tim. 3:16 says: 16
Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 17
That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
The point is certainly not to try to bind the consciences of our brothers and sisters in Christ. If God has not forbidden something it is sinful for me to try to tell someone else what they are doing is sin even if I don't feel comfortable doing it.
Again, if I try to warn someone of the dangers of doing cocaine, does that make me wrong? Not that Celbrating Chrismas and doing cocaine are equal, but neither are condemned in the scriptures. So the idea that if the Bible doesn't specifically condenm it, it's ok, is faulty. What about internet pornography and pedophilia? What about driving through red lights? Just because these things are modern issues that the Bible doesn't touch on doesn't mean that the God who wrote the Bible doesn't have feelings on these subjects. the Principles found in the Bible are timeless and can guide us on all these matters.
God never commanded us not to celebrate the Nativity and you are creating your own laws and putting yourself in the place of God.
That celebration came about after the Bible was completed, How could the Bible have condemned it????
__________________ When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth he either ceases to be mistaken or begins to be dishonest.
Let me specify: Doing Cocaine and Meth is not condemned in the Bible. Neither is sniffing spray paint But don't you think scriptures like 2 Cor. 7:1 and laws against drunkenness provide a glimpse into God's feelings on the subject?
Cocaine has some beneficial medical uses and spray paint has obvious beneficial uses that don't involve sticking it up your nose. Alcohol in Scripture is spoken of as a blessing but drunkenness is a sin. None of the things you mention are evil in and of themselves. They are examples of good gifts that people have abused and used in the wrong way. A person can praise God for every single thing that they eat, another becomes a glutton.
In respect to the celebration of "holy days," Paul is clear. If someone wants to set aside a day to remember a particular event that's okay and if someone else does not want to celebrate, that's okay too. You have yet to produce any kind of logical argument that would lead me to believe that God considers the celebration of the Nativity to be sinful.
In the case of cocaine addiction for instance you could argue that God does not want us to be addicted to things because when we are addicted to something we end up breaking the commandment against having other gods before Him. In this particular addiction we would also be breaking the commandment against murder because we would be destroying our bodies. This would also apply to ice cream and any other product that people get addicted to and ruin their bodies with. In the case of cocaine you could also argue that they are not honoring father and mother because the government has determined that it is illegal. But I just don't see any of this with the celebration of the Nativity. The place in which Scripture speaks clearest as it would pertain to the Nativity is what Paul said that I posted earlier and if we are going to develop a principle from that it is that we are free to celebrate the Nativity and should not be trying to bind one another's consciences on the issue.
The Bible does contain certain principles but the principles themselves are not the main point. They may be a point, but they are not the main point. The Scriptures as Jesus says are all about Jesus. Even when Jesus preaches about the issue of adultery, if you read the text carefully you will find that Jesus point was to show how everyone was guilty of breaking the commandment. A person might then go back and try to figure out what the Bible says about divorce and remarriage and so forth. But if they make that the point of it all, they miss the point.
__________________ Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. - G.K. Chesterton
This would explain why we view the celebration of Christmas differently. Now we are making progress. You see principles as "not the main point". I see them as the main point. Maybe I should explain my understanding of principles a little later. i'm busy right now, so I'll get back to it. But it makes perfect sense now why you and I aren't seeing eye to eye. have a nice day!
__________________ When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth he either ceases to be mistaken or begins to be dishonest.
Jesus Himself said that all of the Scriptures testify about Him so either Jesus is the main point or Jesus is wrong. Every single religion other than Christianity is all about principles for daily living and how to make some kind of god happy by doing these.
However, even if I were to start with the premise that "principles" are the main point there is absolutely no way that you can get to celebration of the Nativity is sin.
Colossians 2:16-23 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations - 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 ( referring to things that all perish as they are used) - according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
If I were going to use the above passage to develop principles about whether or not a person should celebrate the Nativity I could only reach the conclusion that a person is free to celebrate the Nativity and free not to. The above passage teaches that telling people that they have to celebrate the Nativity or not celebrate the Nativity is an example of self-made religion.
__________________ Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. - G.K. Chesterton
But don't you think scriptures like 2 Cor. 7:1 and laws against drunkenness provide a glimpse into God's feelings on the subject? And I have to disagree with your statement that "the point of Scripture is not to give us principles for living." 2 Tim. 3:16 says:
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