The old Spirit of Christ teaching - Romans 8v9 (meaning that it is NOT referring to the Holy Spirit, taught by others years ago including the Jeffrey brothers) was dropped by the majority of Pentecostals years ago.
They also dropped the truth that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all, and healing is for all. So I would not go too much on what modern Pentecostals teach.
Let me think, the falling apart mess of modern Pentecostalism or the Jeffreys and Wigglesworth?!
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
The whole 'give to get, get to give' claim preaches well, but it just isn't a biblical principle. There are a couple of scriptures that may suggest this principle, but only if you take them out of context.
That shows a remarkable lack of knowledge of the Scripture, Simon.
For example, the Scripture in 2 Cor. 8 and 9 is all about finances and the comments about giving to get, getting to give is in the middle of that. You actually have to rip Scriptures OUT of context to misunderstand them and say that it is not God's will that we are rich.
The great danger of this principle is that it is completely ignorant of men's hearts. How can a pastor honesty claim the moral high ground with a principle that appeals to insecurity and greed? Are they that clueless about their congregation and even their own hearts?
I am a pastor who is Word of faith. Which principle that appeals to insecurity and greed am I promulgating here? I do not consider myself clueless about my congregation or my hearts. I find your comments about my congregation close to a flame, a groundless insult to people of God you have never met.
The evidence is the many WoF preachers who now have many houses, private jets, etc...and yet still beg for money (for your blessing of course). If these Spiritual giants were unable to resist the temptations of materialism and greed, how are the less committed supposed to?
Beg?! That's a bizarre choice of words. Yes there are some preachers who are definitely beggars, but you will find that taking an offering does not make you a beggar. Having material goods does not make you evil.
Having things is not greed. Having things is not materialism.
That's the great trap, men may start out with good intentions, or deceive themselves about their own hearts, but most people can never have enough money or possessions.
peace,
Simon
Thankfully you have a pure heart and are hear to correct all our theology! Yet, you seem to be able to think that you are completely immune to deceiving yourself. Perhaps it could be pride and prestige that leads you to correct people and set yourself as your judge. Perhaps your intentions are wrong, perhaps you have deceived yourself.
If it is that easy, you will have to agree it is a possibility here.
Prosperity,
Benjamin
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
In my opinion prosperity teaching is a call to discontent. Something that Paul says needs to be learnt and is not a gift. How can one Learn to be content if they are being taught not to be content?
Personally, I don't think either of us is "right". And that's why I believe that we need each other, despite the fact that there are areas of strong disagreement between us.
No part of the body of Christ has any right to say to another, "I have no need of you." Whether you realize it or not this is the message you portray loud and clear to your WoF brothers. In this thread, you've said;
Now that implies to me that you have no need of WoF people, or at least, have no need of what they have to say. But by saying that, you are COMPLETELY discounting EVERYTHING that we would say.
The Truth is, every part of the body of Christ needs the other parts to function properly. Even if we disagree, we need to come to the realization that none of us has the complete full Truth, and we all need each other to learn and grow in Him.
Pete,
It's a little disingenuous to put "I have no need of you" in quotes, which suggests I said this, which I did not. For future reference, a more acceptable form would be: ‘I have no need of you’; indicating that no one actually said this.
Apart from that I think you bring up some good points.
I agree that I don’t have perfection in my beliefs, and I don’t expect perfection from anyone else. I’m a work in progress, and don’t expect to have it all right prior to the next life.
I do accept WoF believers as a part of the Body of Christ. It’s not my intent for people to discount everything that WoF says. I guess I don’t mind people listening to WoF, as long as they are fully aware of the foundational and core beliefs that are behind WoF teachings. But then if you don’t believe those core beliefs, why listen?
The US had some elections yesterday. Most people voted by looking at the guy behind the podium, and getting a feel for whether they like and trust him more than the other guy.
I wish they'd look at the beliefs, vision and voting record of the two parties, and make a decision based on the core issues.
It's not much different in the church. Most people wander into churches and all they know is it's ‘charismatic’. Then they make a decision to stay based on how they 'feel' about the atmosphere, friendliness, worship, and pastor...
Most don’t have a clue what the difference is between the local Rhema church, and the more traditional Charismatic church next door. They may just think the Rhema church has nicer facilities and the pastor a better preaching style or sense of humour.
I’d rather Christians looked at core beliefs, not 'how personable the preacher is'.
It's a little disingenuous to put "I have no need of you" in quotes, which suggests I said this, which I did not. For future reference, a more acceptable form would be: ‘I have no need of you’; indicating that no one actually said this.
The Bible actually says this (1 Corinthians 12:21), which is why I put it in quotes. Generally when I'm quoting someone on the forum, I use the QUOTE tags. I can assure you it was not my intention to make it appear that you said this directly.
Originally Posted by Simon Peter
Apart from that I think you bring up some good points.
I agree that I don’t have perfection in my beliefs, and I don’t expect perfection from anyone else. I’m a work in progress, and don’t expect to have it all right prior to the next life.
I do accept WoF believers as a part of the Body of Christ. It’s not my intent for people to discount everything that WoF says. I guess I don’t mind people listening to WoF, as long as they are fully aware of the foundational and core beliefs that are behind WoF teachings. But then if you don’t believe those core beliefs, why listen?
Because that's the beginning of haughtiness. Now I'm not calling you haughty, but when we stop listening to people that we disagree with, that puts us on a path of haughtiness, or rather, the unwillingness to consider another viewpoint.
This is actually a point of contention I have with many of my fellow WoF brothers. WoF, I believe, brought with it a revelation of the importance of faith. But now some people have camped out there, and refuse to move on. "Faith" is just one piece of the puzzle. We also need to understand grace, Love, mercy, compassion, etc.
I see the same thing in traditional, denominational Christianity. People get "stuck", for lack of a better word, because they absolutely and unequivocally dismiss anything that disagrees with their beliefs. But none of us can grow that way.
That's why I will listen to people that I know I disagree with. It doesn't mean that I am ever going to agree with them completely on everything, but I need to understand that they have a piece of the puzzle that the body of Christ needs, and I need to respect that.
Originally Posted by Simon Peter
I’d rather Christians looked at core beliefs, not 'how personable the preacher is'.
I'd rather Christians look at how they Love.
Jesus said we would be known as His disciples by our Love for one another, not because our core beliefs were correct. This is a statement that I believe has been all but lost on the church as a whole, WoF and non-WoF alike.
__________________ "You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
I checked out the Andrew Wommack page that is linked, have never listened to any of his stuff.. but just from the one page, I'd say he is spot on right there.
However, probably it's not wise to exclude anyone, as everyone is in a different place in their walk.. and just because the holy spirit is not 'in' them today, doesn't mean that won't change by tomorrow so encouragement is probably the only way to go.
It's really all just a matter of repentance I think.. repent, be forgiven.. and putting down what you think you might know.. handing it all over to Jesus.. and letting him rebuild your world, your life. and then, what seemed like foolishness is suddenly crystal clear. One brief moment in Jesus' presence answers most questions and removes doubt.
But only Jesus can give someone that experience of himself, fill someone with the holy spirit, all we can do is tell them about it.
repent, be saved.
Most of what I thought I knew before i got saved went into the garbage can afterwards. And that was a lot of stuff! 4 years of philosophy in college, 90% of it in the garbage can!
That shows a remarkable lack of knowledge of the Scripture, Simon.
For example, the Scripture in 2 Cor. 8 and 9 is all about finances and the comments about giving to get, getting to give is in the middle of that. You actually have to rip Scriptures OUT of context to misunderstand them and say that it is not God's will that we are rich.
My knowledge of the scripture is quite adequate, thank you. Perhaps you mistook a different exegetical approach to a lack of knowledge? 2Cor 8 and 9 are certainly in the context of finances. But this scripture does not support a ‘give to get, get to give’ principle. That whole passage in scripture supports the 'wealthy giving to the poor’ principle. Which I fully endorse.
Originally Posted by KingZzub
I am a pastor who is Word of faith. Which principle that appeals to insecurity and greed am I promulgating here? I do not consider myself clueless about my congregation or my hearts. I find your comments about my congregation close to a flame, a groundless insult to people of God you have never met.
Calm down Benjamin. We are talking about a ‘principle’ here, I haven’t even mentioned your congregation. I think I have far more grounds to be insulted by your personal comments about my ‘lack of scriptural knowledge’ I’m not claiming that WoF teachers uniformly and deliberately appeal to insecurity and greed, though some certainly do. I’m saying the ‘give to get, get to give’ principle has an obvious weakness, in that it will often – in lesser men than you – appeal to insecurity and greed.
Originally Posted by KingZzub
Beg?! That's a bizarre choice of words. Yes there are some preachers who are definitely beggars, but you will find that taking an offering does not make you a beggar. Having material goods does not make you evil.
Having things is not greed. Having things is not materialism.
For the record, I did not say, or infer, that:
- Taking an offering makes you a beggar. - Having material goods makes you evil. - Having things is greed. - Having things is materialism.
Originally Posted by KingZzub
Thankfully you have a pure heart and are hear to correct all our theology!
Benjamin, Benjamin, sarcasm isn’t the answer here.
Originally Posted by KingZzub
Yet, you seem to be able to think that you are completely immune to deceiving yourself.
Never said such a thing. But does this mean no one should ever venture an opinion - even when asked for one (as we were here) - in case you are wrong?
Originally Posted by KingZzub
Perhaps it could be pride and prestige that leads you to correct people and set yourself as your judge.
Is this intended as an insult? Regardless, it sounds like you feel free to correct and judge me...
peace, Simon
Last edited by Simon Peter; 5th November 2009 at 08:36 AM.
Give to get goes against the example of scripture where the church gave to the poor of Jrusalem to recieve a blessing. Giving to the rich goes against everything.
The Bible actually says this (1 Corinthians 12:21), which is why I put it in quotes. Generally when I'm quoting someone on the forum, I use the QUOTE tags. I can assure you it was not my intention to make it appear that you said this directly.
Oops, sorry, didn’t catch that. More used to the NIV “I don’t need you”.
Originally Posted by probinson
Because that's the beginning of haughtiness. Now I'm not calling you haughty, but when we stop listening to people that we disagree with, that puts us on a path of haughtiness, or rather, the unwillingness to consider another viewpoint.
The key to what you’ve said is “consider another viewpoint”. Which is exactly my point about being fully aware of the foundational and core beliefs behind WoF.
My problem is with people who don’t consider any viewpoint, they just listen to whoever. To consider another viewpoint, you have to understand it; that requires listening.
But if you’ve listened and considered, and come to a different conclusion, you don’t continue to attend a church of another persuasion. Or continue to listen to their messages for inspiration. Just as I doubt you listened to many Catholic sermons this week, Pete?
But if you meant, ‘keep the dialogue open’; well that wasn’t my point at all, and of course I’d agree with that; which I’m demonstrating as I type
Originally Posted by probinson
I'd rather Christians look at how they Love.
Yes, a different sermon, but yes.
Originally Posted by probinson
Jesus said we would be known as His disciples by our Love for one another, not because our core beliefs were correct. This is a statement that I believe has been all but lost on the church as a whole, WoF and non-WoF alike.
But this doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t concerned about core beliefs and doctrine. When addressing the churches in Revelation, Jesus was concerned about love and doctrinal issues.
Give to get goes against the example of scripture where the church gave to the poor of Jrusalem to recieve a blessing. Giving to the rich goes against everything.
Exactyl.The funds were going to the needy.Paul said the same thing in Rom 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
Also we see that in Acts chapter 2:45,and stressed in Acts 4.
Acts 4:34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold 35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
I just wish that when sowing an reaping is taught,the sowing went to the poor.I think that when I see a needy person,that it is wonderful to help him.Jesus said that.Everything has gotten so perverted.
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For future reference, a more acceptable form would be: ‘I have no need of you’; indicating that no one actually said this.
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