How many here really accept the Athanasian Creed?

I visited an ELCA Church about 17 years ago and on that Sunday a visiting pastor chose the Athanasian Creed as creed of the day. However, when the time came to the section of the creed that professes eternal punishment, virtually the entire congregation became silent, leaving perhaps only 5% that were willing to recite said words. Such an experience led me to believe that only a very small percentage of ELCA Lutherans believe that Hell's torment is forever.

Regardless of your branch of Lutheranism, how many here personally believe in eternal punishment, as listed in the Anthanasian Creed?

I believe that Hell lasts forever. I don't know what else I'm supposed to believe regarding what the Bible says about it.

__________________
Rom.6:20-23 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Originally Posted by Basil the Great

I visited an ELCA Church about 17 years ago and on that Sunday a visiting pastor chose the Athanasian Creed as creed of the day. However, when the time came to the section of the creed that professes eternal punishment, virtually the entire congregation became silent, leaving perhaps only 5% that were willing to recite said words. Such an experience led me to believe that only a very small percentage of ELCA Lutherans believe that Hell's torment is forever.

Regardless of your branch of Lutheranism, how many here personally believe in eternal punishment, as listed in the Anthanasian Creed?

The ELCA has their own earthly concepts on many things. This does not surprise me.

The Bible teaches that hell is forever, so I believe it. It's what my branch (WELS) of the Lutheran church, teaches as well.

__________________
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I accept the Athanasian Creed. There is no question that in not only addresses the the Holy Trinity in a most clear, concise, and Biblical way, but also the requirement of Faith for Salvation. Eternal punishment is the consequence of denying or rejecting that Faith.

Our Congregation uses it once every year on Trinity Sunday.

The ELCA, ELCIC, in their new hymnal have removed it.

Truly sad in my opinion. I have never seen faith as something that you can pick and choose from. It is an all or nothing thing. Scripture is clear; The Athanasian Creed clearly explains Scripture.

What more can I say?

Pax Domini,

Mark.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

All Confessional Lutherans accept the Athanasian Creed as being a true exposition of Scriptural truth. This is why the creed is included in the Book of Concord, the Lutheran Confessions. The ELCA is not a confessional Lutheran church body, thus they do not necessarily accept what the Confessions (or for that matter the Bible) teach.

My wife really loved the Athanasian Creed. She wanted all of our children to memorize it. I was able to get her to settle for the Apostle's and Nicene.

Like many masterpieces of faith, there are depths to plumb in the Athanasian. Sadly, I rarely take the time. I have to agree with Mark and Seajoy, though. One really hasn't any choice about what to accept or not. It's kind of an all or nothing thing. Then again, it's kind of like the Book of James says, 'you will know them by their works...' if someone rejects part of the 'Creeds then it's likely they reject large parts of the Bible as well. It's sad, really, but there it is...

__________________
Sufficient for the day are the troubles therein.

My normal advice to anyone seeking information about the Lutheran church is to take anything said by self-identified "confessional Lutherans" about the ELCA with a grain of salt. There are many here who are eager to distort and put the worst construction on the beliefs and practices of the ELCA.

I'm not surprised, though, that ELCA Lutherans would refuse to affirm the eternal torment described in the Athanasian Creed. My own ELCA congregation does not recite the Athanasian Creed, and if we did, we almost certainly would exclude those portions of it. I think most Lutherans would have no problem affirming the Christological and Trinitarian theology expressed in the creed (even though very few would actually understand the theological controversies that formed the context in which the creed was written), but the damnation of all who would express their Christological or Trinitarian theology differently would rightly be unacceptable to most. It must be remembered that the Athanasian Creed was not written to counter the views of non-Christians, but of other Christians. Those whom the Athanasian Creed insists will suffer eternal torment were not non-Christians; they were the Christian theological opponents of the creed's author(s), whoever that was.

We in the ELCA understand that, contrary to the claims of the Athanasian Creed, doctrinal purity is not a prerequisite for salvation. This notion of salvation being strongly (and perhaps even inextricably) linked with doctrinal purity is strongly affirmed among those who identify themselves as confessional Lutherans, who frequently conflate true faith with correct (according to their own understanding, that is) propositional assent. In those quarters you do frequently find the sort of talk that the Athanasian Creed affirms--that those with a different understanding of the Christian faith will not be saved or, at the very least, that their salvation is not assured in the same manner as that of those who are doctrinally pure according to the in-group's theological tradition. A cursory look at this very forum will provide ample evidence that this Athanasian spirit of divisiveness, exclusion and sectarianism--even toward other Christians--is alive and well.

The misguided equivocation between faith and propositional assent does not comport with the norm of scripture as we in the ELCA understand it. Thus we reject the confessional Lutheran error of biblicism and the legalism that always accompanies it, even if one of the historical texts of the Western Christian tradition affirms them. It is possible both to affirm the theology expressed in the creed and reject its legalistic insistence that doctrinally pure propositional conformity to it is the true norm of faith. There is nothing about the Christological or Trinitarian theology of the creed that would necessitate the damnation of Christians who express their theology differently.

Of course there are many conservative ELCA members who would readily affirm the entirety of the Athanasian Creed, including the eternal torment of those whom it excludes. I, for one, am thankful that they are in the minority among us, and am entirely unapologetic about my refusal to follow the Athanasian Creed for even an inch on this point about the alleged doubtless eternal torment of "doctrinally impure" fellow Christians. Rejection of such nonsense is no mere "earthly concept," but rather an affirmation of the Christian faith as expressed according to the norm of scripture. I simply see no way that a faithful reading of scripture through the lens of Christ could possibly lead one to affirm the damnation of other Christ-believers. The Athanasian Creed, insofar as it does affirm just that, is absolutely not a clear exposition of scripture as properly understood through the lens of Christ, but rather is a rank perversion of it.

You start off by saying confessionals don't know what we are talking about when referring to the ELCA.....then you go on to confirm all that we say about you. Very interesting.

__________________
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I believe it. I also think that if you are going to recite the Athanasian Creed, that you recite it all or forget about it entirely.

__________________
God Bless,
Jane

Make me to know your ways, O, Lord; teach me your paths. Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long. Psalm 25:4-5 (ESV)

JoeCatch - That may have been the best long post that I have read on the Christian Forums boards! It is sad that many or most of these so-called Confessional Lutherans look down upon the ELCA Lutherans and refuse to commune with them. They seem to forget or ignore that they themselves have already rejected much of what was passed on down to Martin Luther from the Church Fathers, like the tradition of praying for the dead, the seven sacraments, etc.