How many here really accept the Athanasian Creed?

seajoy · #11 31st October 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Basil the Great

It is sad that many or most of these so-called Confessional Lutherans look down upon the ELCA Lutherans and refuse to commune with them. They seem to forget or ignore that they themselves have already rejected much of what was passed on down to Martin Luther from the Church Fathers, like the tradition of praying for the dead, the seven sacraments, etc.

And the ELCA HAS hung on to all this tradition?

Close Communion has nothing to do with looking down on someone. It's praying they see the light.

JoeCatch · #12 31st October 2009, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by seajoy

You start off by saying confessionals don't know what we are talking about when referring to the ELCA.....then you go on to confirm all that we say about you. Very interesting.

Please reread my post. I flatly reject much of what has been said about us.

For one, I explicitly rejected your claim that our reluctance to affirm the Athanasian Creed's condemnation of other Christians is an "earthly concept" rather than one genuinely motivated by a faithful attempt to remain faithful to the norm of scripture.

Moreover, I explicitly rejected Mark's claim that our reluctance to affirm the Athanasian Creed's condemnation of other Christians is an instance of picking and choosing and a denial of the clear teaching of scripture.

I likewise explicitly rejected DaRev's claim that our reluctance to affirm the Athanasian Creed's condemnation of other Christians is a refusal to accept what scripture teaches.

I explicitly rejected as erroneous Studeclunker's claim that faith (or even assent to a creed) is somehow or in some sense an all-or-nothing proposition.

You did actually read those passages from my post before jumping on the reply button, didn't you?

You are correct; I absolutely agree with those who point out that the ELCA has little truck with the Athanasian Creed's condemnation of other Christians. The reasons that confessional/conservative Lutherans have given for that (a desire to be worldly and a rejection of scripture) have been off the mark, though. These distortions do not accurately or adequately explain our view or how we come to it. Hardly a confirmation of everything that you've said about us.

QuiltAngel · #13 31st October 2009, 04:14 PM

I think that if you want an ELCA thread and to bash Confessional Lutherans, you may want to put them in the ELCA subforum. I haven't been on here much lately. I think I know why now.

seajoy · #14 31st October 2009, 04:15 PM

JoeCatch -You sure have rejected a lot in your post.

seajoy · #15 31st October 2009, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by QuiltAngel

I think that if you want an ELCA thread and to bash Confessional Lutherans, you may want to put them in the ELCA subforum. I haven't been on here much lately. I think I know why now.

Reasons ELCA should have their own forum.

QuiltAngel · #16 31st October 2009, 04:19 PM

The OP asks why and people give him reasons why. Joe, you then reject all the reasons so tell us what the reason is.

Basil the Great · #17 31st October 2009, 04:22 PM

If we read the Athanasian Creed carefully, it is clearly making the claim that anyone who does not believe in eternal torment for the lost, cannot himself be saved. Hum.... I wonder where this leaves one of the famous Eastern Church Fathers who clearly taught "the Restoration of all things" and did not believe in eternal punishment? Does this mean that he is in Hell? Then again, maybe he is in Heaven, since the Athanasian Creed was developed after his death?

JoeCatch · #18 31st October 2009, 04:41 PM

As I read the OP, he asked how many Lutherans of various sorts accept the doctrine of eternal punishment as expressed in the Athanasian Creed. I answered the OP to his own satisfaction that many in the ELCA reject that view (though some do), and gave reasons for our rejection of that view--first and foremost among those reasons being the understanding that the Athanasian Creed's damnation falls upon other Christians.

QuiltAngel, I'm not sure what further reasons you're looking for. We don't believe that Christians of differing confessions are doubtless going to suffer eternal torment. Such belief, even if it is found in the creed, does not comport with our understanding of the norm of scripture. I really don't know what further explanation you're looking for.

Nothing that I've written here has been "bashing" confessional Lutherans. True enough, I clearly have explicitly rejected many of the defining theological positions of confessional Lutheranism, but the confessional Lutherans clearly and explicitly reject the theology of the ELCA all the time. Somehow, though, that manages not to be interpreted as "bashing." Can someone offer me an actually principled explanation of what the relevant difference between the two is?

JoeCatch · #19 31st October 2009, 04:50 PM

Basil,

The Eastern Orthodox view of the restoration of all things is much closer to what you'd typically find in an ELCA congregation than the Athanasian Creed's view of the eternal torment of the doctrinally impure. For what it's worth, the Eastern churches have never accepted the Athanasian Creed.

The ELCA does not explicitly deny the reality of an eternal hell in the afterlife for those who reject the gospel, but neither do we explicitly affirm it. Many ELCA Lutherans would reject this view, though many would accept it. I really don't have a feel for where the numbers would shake out, but at least insofar as our offiical view is concerned, we are content to leave all of that in God's hands and not presume to have to have all of it figured out. For whatever it's worth, I'm wary of too much of an afterlife orientation in religion to begin with, and especially have little use for theologies that draw sharp distinctions between who's in and who's out. When I read scripture, I get a strong sense that whatever our fate is (whether it's "merely" here on earth or in an afterlife), we're all in it together. The notion that some will be in paradise forever and others tormented forever just doesn't square up for me with what the kerygma (preaching) of Christ is all about.

Basil the Great · #20 31st October 2009, 04:54 PM

I apologize if I offended any conservative/Confessional Lutherans here. You are to be commended for your deep faith. I do understand why you would now have a problem with the ELCA, due to their recent votes to allow same-sex blessings and ordination of gay clergy. However, I simply do not understand why you would have had problems with them previously, when they at least as a denomination accepted the Athanasian Creed and the Lutheran Confessions. Maybe I am missing something???

One ALC member told me before the merger with the LCA that some ALC members were upset because the LCA did not accept a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis. Is this really what the Mo Synod and the WELS are holding against the current ELCA or is it because the ELCA ordains women pastors?