Personally, I prefer minimum government involvement in my life. The bigger the government becomes, the less freedom we'll have.
Yup. Ditto.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have," - Gerald Ford, joint session of Congress, August 12, 1974.
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, Paris, 27 May 1788.
...which of course is one of the motives behind the founding fathers' construct of our Constitution - to limit such "progress."
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"I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isa 44:22
What has made america free and great was that there was limited control of government power. People didn't immigrate to america because it was a socialist country ran by the government. This is how america become sovern to begin with. We are founded on judeo-christian values. Our foundering fathers were escaping oppression from the King of England which was socialist. They wanted freedom of religion and limited government. Now, the american marxist and socialist are trying to destroy this and manipulate the constitution. They will cause higher taxes, trying to socialized medicine (a disaster), cap and trade which will cause higher taxes-double your utility bill- the global warming fraud-which is international control. (Its all about oppression and control of the individual by socialists). When government gets control its always a big failure. The socialist STILL have this mindset that government is better. Government is only better if they all think like Christ-and most of them don't. How can the wicked guide the righteous? They can't. What gets me is that they call themselves "progressive" and there is nothing progressive about it-there is no progress but a regressive downward spiral into oppression in which our founding fathers were trying to escape from to begin with.
__________________ Sola Scriptura is Eternal Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, 2 Peter 1:20. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (October 11, 1798). Roe vs. Wade - 45 million **Proverbs 6:16-17 - states that there are seven things that are an abomination to the Lord; one of them is the shedding of innocentblood. The B.O. Must Go! Huckabee in 2012
I was listening to the listing in the House Bill debate on C-Span -- it includes regulating restaurants over what you can eat, regulating how you raise your kids, how people attend to you. It's not just medical. It's about everything that impacts your health.
It destroys liberty. Voice your opposition.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
I was listening to the listing in the House Bill debate on C-Span -- it includes regulating restaurants over what you can eat, regulating how you raise your kids, how people attend to you. It's not just medical. It's about everything that impacts your health.
It destroys liberty. Voice your opposition.
Oh my it regulates even more than our healthcare? as if that wasn't enough but what the heck, the restaurant and how we raise our kids, how people attend to us? I know I may regret asking this but where in the bill does it say these things? I've seen PARTS of the bill and it was enough to make me very uneasy.
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I miss my Mom's meatballs
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Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.
Oh my it regulates even more than our healthcare? as if that wasn't enough but what the heck, the restaurant and how we raise our kids, how people attend to us? I know I may regret asking this but where in the bill does it say these things? I've seen PARTS of the bill and it was enough to make me very uneasy.
John Boehner went through the bill last night on the House Floor describing the huge expansion of powers it was affording. It's not just about medical care. Like it says, it's about health. As a result it imposes regulation on the food service industry for instance -- presently it's limited to labeling, but of course the enforcement and penalties for such things can go beyond the letter of law and always have. That's sec. 2572, p. 1512. I believe this appears in the "Prevention and Wellness" section, but the PDFs from the government don't allow easy navigation.
The fact that it's in here leaves it available for later revision and expansion whenever the your Congressional Nannies decide it's not enough. How many liberals do you know who think the present plan is enough? I know of none. Everyone says there's "more to do".
Division C Title II (this is a whole section of the bill) involves the caregiver's working conditions and thus, obviously, deductively, standards for your household in providing a healthy environment. A nice canard for your household's privacy, the "right to be secure in your person, household, and effects" is breached.
Title IX Sec 1904 provides for Health Advocacy employees to conduct home visitation programs for "families with young children and expecting children"
As a Medicare recipient, once you go to a hospital, you might not be let out if the "primary caregiver" is assessed by the hospital not to be "sufficient". Division B Title 1 Subtitle C, Sec. 1151
The House didn't give us enough time to actually look at it electronically with any thoroughness. They just rammed it through. In fact they defied the House rules that the bill be available for review by House representatives from the clerk on the floor, as well.
Shades of a midnight Sanhedrin meeting 2000 years ago.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
Last edited by heymikey80; 8th November 2009 at 10:29 AM.
Because of human nature there are issues with both sides. The missing ingredient is that such debates always omit any reference to the moral dimension, which is best rooted within a religious context. That category has been confined to the private sphere rather than being something for the wider decision making community.
Jim Wallis of Sojourners is one Christian who enters into this debate with Christian concepts to the fore. Only the introduction of a well developed third dimension to the debate will produce anything more than the standard debate.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
Because of human nature there are issues with both sides. The missing ingredient is that such debates always omit any reference to the moral dimension, which is best rooted within a religious context. That category has been confined to the private sphere rather than being something for the wider decision making community.
That's because it's extremely hard to build a coalition among opposed groups in the religious context.
In a grace-based system, the keyword is grace. It's not forced by moral compulsion, much less by government enslavement.
Originally Posted by Johnnz
Jim Wallis of Sojourners is one Christian who enters into this debate with Christian concepts to the fore. Only the introduction of a well developed third dimension to the debate will produce anything more than the standard debate.
I found Wallis to be little more than a social activist with a religious basis. That's fine as far as it goes, but when it allows the spread of moral corruption for the sake of beggaring the hard work of others, it weakens everyone involved. Grace is after all the point: not enslavement of the productive for the sake of the less fortunate.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
Anytime you put all the power in the hands of the government, there are going to be abuses and corruption. But the same can be said about putting all the power in the private sector. We live in a fallen world that will not be straightened out till Jesus is our King. That being said, a system of checks and balances between the private sector (ownership and profit) and government (regulations and taxes/fees) is much the same idea our founding fathers had with the Legislative Branch (Congress), the Judicial Branch (Supreme Court) and the Executive Branch (Presidency). Personally, I'm afraid the current President is trying to permanently tip the balance towards a European style socialism. Is there any correlation between the rise of European socialism and the decline of Christianity there? [Only 5% call themselves Evangelical.]
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