One is not always forgiven. In the case of King David:
I didn't say that one is always forgiven.
I would like to point out that the post that you quoted was really a continuation of the one that preceeded it. I don;t know if you missed it because it was at the bottom of a page, or just didn't respond to it.
Here is it again, including the quote to which I was responding. I hope that you can respond to this before continuing to discuss the second post, which really was intended to be an after thought to the first.
Well, you may wonder, in view of the fact that your scripture tells you that is possible to keep every commandment.
Phoebe,
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood what you are saying. Perhaps these questions will help to clarify one way or another.
The Atonement is supposed to give you power.
Should there be anyone who feels he is too weak to change the onward and downward course of his life, or should there be those who fail to resolve to do better because of that greatest of fears—the fear of failure—there is no more comforting assurance to be had than these words of the Lord: “My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” (Ether 12:27)
Miracles are everywhere to be found when priesthood callings are magnified. When faith replaces doubt, when selfless service eliminates selfish striving, the power of God brings to pass His purposes.
Thomas S. Monson, “Priesthood Power,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, p. 49
How is this so different from what we read in 1 Corinthians 10:13?
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Quentin L. Cook, “Strengthen Faith as You Seek Knowledge,” New Era, Sept. 2008, 6
Lawrence E. Corbridge, "The Way," Ensign, Nov. 2008, p. 35
When LDS are baptized, their past sins are forgiven and they have access to power from Christ through His Atonement.
I too, am missing what your point is. Maybe it would help if you explained in more detail. When someone comes to Christ and the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost make His home with them, does he not bring a power into their lives? Are we not told to walk by the Spirit, not the flesh? Are we not told to put on the armor of God?
Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Are we not told that when we are baptized into Christ (whether this be a spiritual or physical baptism is besides my point) that we have died to sin, and are raised to live a new life?
Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Doesn't this passage of scripture state that if we are in Christ, that the Spirit of God lives us, and therefore we are not controlled by our sinful natures? There is a power in that that helps us to overcome sin.
Romans 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
Fantastic! You could just about give a talk in one of our sacrament meetings on the topic of the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Maybe I have misunderstood what Phoebe Ann was saying. At any rate, I hope that we can discuss this. I especially feel strongly that the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost does give us strength to resist sin. If I am mistaken, then I hope that someone will explain why.
__________________
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
I mean it, and I agree with you. Here is from the Guide to the Scriptures -
GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
HOLY GHOST
The third member of the Godhead (1 Jn. 5: 7; D&C 20: 28). He is a personage of Spirit, not having a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 22). The Holy Ghost is often referred to as the Spirit, or the Spirit of God.
The Holy Ghost performs several vital roles in the plan of salvation.1 He bears witness of the Father and the Son (1 Cor. 12: 3; 3 Ne. 28: 11; Ether 12: 41).2 He reveals the truth of all things (John 14: 26; 16: 13; Moro. 10: 5; D&C 39: 6).3 He sanctifies those who have repented and become baptized (John 3: 5; 3 Ne. 27: 20; Moses 6: 64-68).4 He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76: 50-53; 132: 7, 18-19, 26).
The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught that all sins could be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12: 31-32; Mark 3: 28-29; Luke 12: 10; Heb. 6: 4-8; D&C 76: 34-35).
The Spirit causes men to walk in God’s statutes, Ezek. 36: 27. The Apostles were commissioned to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, Matt. 28: 19. The Holy Ghost shall teach you all things, John 14: 26. Holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1: 21. Nephi was led by the Spirit, 1 Ne. 4: 6. The mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, 1 Ne. 10: 17-19. The Holy Ghost shows all things that you should do, 2 Ne. 32: 5. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10: 5. The Holy Ghost will tell you in your mind and in your heart, D&C 8: 2. The Spirit leadeth to do good, D&C 11: 12. The Holy Ghost knoweth all things, D&C 35: 19. The Holy Ghost teaches the peaceable things of the kingdom, D&C 36: 2 (D&C 39: 6). If ye receive not the Spirit, ye shall not teach, D&C 42: 14. The Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and the Son, D&C 42: 17 (1 Cor. 12: 3; 3 Ne. 11: 32, 35-36). To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, D&C 46: 13. Whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, D&C 68: 4. The Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things ye shall say, D&C 100: 8. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, D&C 121: 45-46.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood what you are saying. Perhaps these questions will help to clarify one way or another.
The Atonement is supposed to give you power.
Should there be anyone who feels he is too weak to change the onward and downward course of his life, or should there be those who fail to resolve to do better because of that greatest of fears—the fear of failure—there is no more comforting assurance to be had than these words of the Lord: “My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” (Ether 12:27)
Miracles are everywhere to be found when priesthood callings are magnified. When faith replaces doubt, when selfless service eliminates selfish striving, the power of God brings to pass His purposes.
Thomas S. Monson, “Priesthood Power,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, p. 49
How is this so different from what we read in 1 Corinthians 10:13?
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
I believe that what I wanted to say is that the non-LDS follower of Christ is guaranteed a home in heaven based solely on the righteousness of Christ, not on the specific works he or she did (X amount of works are not required whereas in Mormonism, each blessing is predicated upon obedience to a specific law).
Originally Posted by skylark1
I too, am missing what your point is. Maybe it would help if you explained in more detail. When someone comes to Christ and the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost make His home with them, does he not bring a power into their lives? Are we not told to walk by the Spirit, not the flesh? Are we not told to put on the armor of God?
Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Are we not told that when we are baptized into Christ (whether this be a spiritual or physical baptism is besides my point) that we have died to sin, and are raised to live a new life?
Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
All of this is true! However the Christian who possibly did fewer works is not penalized; he has the righteousness of Christ. It was having faith in Christ that removed his condemnation.
Originally Posted by skylark1
Doesn't this passage of scripture state that if we are in Christ, that the Spirit of God lives us, and therefore we are not controlled by our sinful natures? There is a power in that that helps us to overcome sin.
Romans 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Yes, again. But if your salvation depends on more than faith to receive all the blessings, and sin causes the Holy Spirit to withdraw rather than abide with you, there has to be a way to get the Holy Ghost's companionship back. In Mormonism, you do this by repenting according to the LDS definition of repentance.
Repentance, as well as atonement, are taught differently in the LDS church. One cannot claim to already have a guaranteed place in the CK, unless he has proved himself faithful. I’ll include some quotes that I think explain this. Let me know if you need more clarification.
I lost my first draft of this post because I have a new computer with which I am not entirely familiar. I wanted to say that repentance includes sorrow for sin and the absolute forsaking of that sin. Confession is not enough. Restitution must also be made.
All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt.
James E. Faust, “The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,” Ensign, Nov 2001, p. 18
The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior’s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us.
James E. Faust, “The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,” Ensign, Nov 2001, 18
Each of us makes mistakes in life. They result in broken eternal laws. Justice is that part of Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness that maintains order. It is like gravity to a rock climber, ever present. It is a friend if eternal laws are observed. It responds to your detriment if they are ignored. Justice guarantees that you will receive the blessings you earn for obeying the laws of God. Justice also requires that every broken law be satisfied. When you obey the laws of God, you are blessed, but there is no additional credit earned that can be saved to satisfy the laws that you break. If not resolved, broken laws can cause your life to be miserable and would keep you from returning to God. Only the life, teachings, and particularly the Atonement of Jesus Christ can release you from this otherwise impossible predicament.
The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God... Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience.
Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign, Nov 2006, 40–42
"When a person repents, accepts the gospel of Jesus Christ, and lives in accordance with the principles and ordinances of the gospel, then Christ's atonement becomes effective for him, for Jesus Christ has already paid the penalty--that is, for those who will repent." - Royden G. Derrick Agency - Royden G. Derrick
Skylark, am I making myself clear? I appreciate your patience.
Last edited by Phoebe Ann; 7th November 2009 at 03:30 PM.
LDS are not guaranteed a place in the CK. They need both faith and works to determine which kingdom they will be assigned to. It isn't that works aren't expected of Christians but they are guaranteed the heavenly home with the Triune God because of their faith in Christ(see John 3 and Ephesians 2). LDS, OTH, do not know which kingdom they will merit. Because the works/keeping of commandments is required, and because they can be kept, LDS ought not to make excuses when they stand before God. Either they did all they could do or they did not do all they could do. Faith in Christ without keeping the commandments is sure to place one in the Terrestrial Kingdom. In order to obtain the Celestial Kindgom, there are covenants to be made and kept. If LDS confess their sins, it is not enough.
All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt.
Royden G. Derrick
Last edited by Phoebe Ann; 7th November 2009 at 06:03 PM.
Gort: "Considering that all fall short of the glory of God and all have sinned, sin would be logically derived as something "falling short of the glory of God". If disobedience to Gods commandments is not sin and one does not fall short of Gods glory by being disobedient, then that is what it is in the LDS sphere of things. But certainly a contradiction in the sphere of orthodoxy which would obviously hold to a much higher bar."
Romans 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
I asked for a Biblical definition for sin. These verses do not offer the verse you referred to as a definition for sin. That's ok. I'm not interested in continuing any discussion with you. Go ahead and post whatever you want.
Ok, the goalpost has moved again, I see. From your post 81 where you asked for doctrine exhibited in the bible and what you got was doctrine from the bible which tells us that anything less than the glory of God is sin.
Ran77 post 81:
You didn't offer any doctrine exhibited in the bible. You offered your opinion. There was no scripture quoted in your response to me. Post something from the Bible that clearly demonstrates that the definition for sin that the LDS cannot possibly be understood that way or you have nothing with this argument. And that doesn't mean post something and claim that your opinion of what it means is fact and therefore binding upon everyone.
I suppose it is difficult for mormons to observe this simple fact that essentially, sin is an act that falls short of Gods glory. Mormonism has differing glories in the hereafter. The term "Differing glories" alone shows that God allows what orthodox would deem "sin" into a degree of glory. The celestial kingdom alone is divided into 3 portions; some become equal to God and others who did'nt adhere to all of God commandments will become ministering angels.
Those who even rejected the mormon gospel in this life have essentially rejected the mormon god, and such rejection would certainly fall short of gods glory, but hey, the mormon god still such unrepentent sin into a heaven. Of sorts.
I've even heard that lying for the mormon god is a good thing too. Stay tuned for a thread about it...
__________________
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth he either ceases to be mistaken or begins to be dishonest.
Love is in the air everywhere I look around Love is in the air Every sight and every sound...
Ok, the goalpost has moved again, I see. From your post 81 where you asked for doctrine exhibited in the bible and what you got was doctrine from the bible which tells us that anything less than the glory of God is sin.
Amazing that you should talk about lying. I'll point out this last one and then I am done with you. I will not continue to deal with these unacceptable tactics.
I supposedly moved the "goalpost."
This is what you responded to:
"I asked for a Biblical definition for sin. These verses do not offer the verse you referred to as a definition for sin. That's ok. I'm not interested in continuing any discussion with you. Go ahead and post whatever you want."
And this is the post that you have indicated where I supposedly have moved the goalpost:
"You didn't offer any doctrine exhibited in the bible. You offered your opinion. There was no scripture quoted in your response to me. Post something from the Bible that clearly demonstrates that the definition for sin that the LDS cannot possibly be understood that way or you have nothing with this argument. And that doesn't mean post something and claim that your opinion of what it means is fact and therefore binding upon everyone."
Including a snippet of scripture in the middle of your opinion about what it means doesn't make it doctrine. It remains your opinion on that scripture. I have not moved my goalpost and if you are going to lie for the non-LDS God, then I am not interested in dealing with you.
__________________ Ran77
Last edited by Ran77; 8th November 2009 at 01:51 AM.
I'm not sure what to say. Thanks?
Linear Mode
