I had always assumed that the 6th Seal was Christ's Coming...
but
it may not be
there is a false Christ too, which is Satan cast from heaven to the earth
notice the heavenly judgements and signs that accompany the earthquake....
this may be the arrival of the false Christ...who must come first to tempt us all...
but either way, the Seals are info only...same as Mat24, Mar13, Luke21...
for the elect...sealed into their minds....
and the entire trumps and vials are also contained with in the 7th seal.
Christ Comes at the 7th trump, the last one...not before that time.
the thought of a 6th seal rapture is wrong completely...it is a 7th trump rapture, which is during the 7th seal.
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oooops.. I had always assumed that the 6th Seal was Christ's Coming... but it may not be there is a false Christ too, which is Satan cast from heaven to the earth notice the heavenly judgements and signs that accompany the earthquake.... this may be the arrival of the false Christ...who must come first to tempt us all... but either way, the Seals are info only...same as Mat24, Mar13, Luke21... for the elect...sealed into their minds.... and the entire trumps and vials are also contained with in the 7th seal. Christ Comes at the 7th trump, the last one...not before that time. the thought of a 6th seal rapture is wrong completely...it is a 7th trump rapture, which is during the 7th seal.
OK, it would be good for us to see just exactly how the seals are infromation ONLY... what led you to believe that this is what they are?
Plus... show us the word "harpazo" or something simular to the exact understanding as being used to proove that it happens as you are telling us...in scripture alone... harpazo,har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of Greek 138 (haireomai); to seize (in various applications) :- catch away, up, pluck, pull, take by force.
Something that would take the actions of being seized, catch away or up, pluck, pull, and taken by force in your verses that also shows a multitude that no man could count...
and the one more thing... explian for us how Apostle John clearly wrote about this multitude in chapter seven, but did not mention them again and how they are in heaven in chapter seven and then somehow they are being caut=ght up in a 7th trumpet
#1 how seals are infromation only
#2 where a "harpazo" takes place during the 7th trumpet
#3 verbatum plural, not singular, a multitude being caught up or even in heaven for that matter sometime during the 7th trumpet in a 7th seal rapture
In scripture...
Thanks
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OK, it would be good for us to see just exactly how the seals are infromation ONLY... what led you to believe that this is what they are?
because SEALS are NEVER actions in the bible...never...
we do have precidence for SEALS... simply look up the word SEAL in a Bible search engine and see if they are ever actions...
the 7 seals are taken off of the scroll....
which now allows that scroll to be opened and read
in the scroll, is the Great Tribulation
trumps are actions...
vials are consequenses, the wrath of God
plus the SEALS, are SEALED into the MINDS of the elect in Rev7...
they are info for the elect, same as the Olivette prophesy
Plus... show us the word "harpazo" or something simular to the exact understanding as being used to proove that it happens as you are telling us...in scripture alone... harpazo,har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of Greek 138 (haireomai); to seize (in various applications) :- catch away, up, pluck, pull, take by force.
I agree that the word means "seized", not caught up.... there is no UP in the original language, so why say it.
the "harpazo" happens when the dead are raised here again on Earth as promised by Christ... and we have plenty of scriptutres to show us exactly when that is.... and it is not pre trib/mid trib....
it is when the 2 witnesses are raised.... which is when the 7th trump is.
Something that would take the actions of being seized, catch away or up, pluck, pull, and taken by force in your verses that also shows a multitude that no man could count...
the multitude that no man can count is not a pre trib or mid trib event... IMO it is a scene from after Christ's return, like in Rev5 when every creature in existance gives Him praise...
Rev5...since there are plenty of bad guys on earth now, and there will be plenty of bad guys on earth during the trib, then it is an impossibility for every creature to praise Him now or in the trib, whether it be mid trib or not...,
until He sets things right...
which does not happen until after.... it sure is not pre or mid trib, is it? logical right? every creature
so, like Rev5's end, I believe the Multitude in Rev 7 is a post trib scene...a Millennial scene showing the children of the firstfruits (spiritually speaking)
and the one more thing... explian for us how Apostle John clearly wrote about this multitude in chapter seven, but did not mention them again and how they are in heaven in chapter seven and then somehow they are being caut=ght up in a 7th trumpet
I have said mutiple times that the mutitude in verse 7 is a scene from after the trib is over...from when Christ is Here
and we do not know that they are in heaven...
they could be here on earth, because Christ and His Throne and His Kingdom are coming hereforever and ever post trib...at the last trump/trump of God/7th trump
we see that scene also in Rev19...
IMO Rev7's multitude is not any specific pre/mid trib raptured group, but the souls that receive the truth in the Millennium... the offspring of Christ and the firstfruits.
the ones that God blinded on purpose
most believers will fail the test of the antiChrist (instead of Christ), and be turned from spiritual virgins for the returning Husbandman Christ, into whores for the antiChrist (Satan).
but God has a plan to write those that He blinded to the truth so thatthey believe a lie...... He will, in the Millennium.... refine them...purify them
I believe this multitude includes that group of blinded beguiled Christians (2Thes2) that took the mark,
because God blinded them on purpose to save them later in the Lord's Day. (1Cor5)
He knows them real good and even though they love Him, they need the refinement.
Mal:1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
#1 how seals are infromation only
they are SEALED into the minds of the elect in Rev7
#2 where a "harpazo" takes place during the 7th trumpet
when the 2 Oilve trees are raised in Rev11 and the earthquake happens, that is the Coming of the Lord and the "harpazo"... and it is post trib.
then, after the two parenthetical chapters in Rev12-13, we see the scene pick up again, and now Christ has the elect that were sealed in Rev7 with Him, and they are here on Mt Zion.
#3 verbatum plural, not singular, a multitude being caught up or even in heaven for that matter sometime during the 7th trumpet in a 7th seal rapture
In scripture...
Thanks
ummm...the whole trib... the trumps and vials are contained within the 7th SEAL...
Christ Comes after that time...
we are given pieces.... and we see bits here and there...
we see the entire scene in Rev19....
so, the two Olive Trees are killed, and gathered/seized....in Rev11
2 parenthetical chapters follow (outside the timeline)
and then Christ is seen on Mt Zion with the 144,000 in Rev14, they are gathered/seized to Him...
show me a 'harpazo" in the 6th SEAL? there is not one, but there is one in the 7th trump... and we already know from the NT that there is a "seizing" at the last trump
hey, the 7th one (Rev11) is the last one in the whole bible even.
peace in Christ
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in Christ's service
c
Last edited by zeke37; 5th November 2009 at 12:20 AM.
Reason: sp and other things
You asked for scripture which shows that the wicked are taken first. So here they are.
Mat 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
Mat 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
This is Christ Himself speaking of what he will do in the end times in just one of many places. A lot more straightforward that the allusions of Thess. 4.
Here in the remainder of the verse is the end of this matter to all who believe the word of God and not the prattlings of man.
[quote] Mat 13:39The enemy who sowed them is the devil,the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
Mat 13:41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
Mat 13:42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43Thenthe righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!/QUOTE]
This is where we are rewarded for our faith in the living God.
After the wicked are removed and destroyed. They GO first. All scripture, not opinion or allusion or presumptions. You asked, the spirit replied.
Mat 13:42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43Thenthe righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!/QUOTE] Matthew 13:49-50 (KJV) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, [50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
IN context, He always goes a little further in His stories when we continue to read on and this statement shows that what you are talking about takes place "at the end of the world"
This world continues to be this world until the END of the 1,000 years... which is even farther away than the mere 7+ years we have left right now in this particular age… It is the White throne judgment... His kingdom is not of this world...the end of this age can either be the age that we are in right now or can be a reference to the end of the 1,000 years...
JUST like when He said "this generation will not pass..." for those who heard that, believed that He was talking about their generation when in fact He was talking about the generation that would see ALL of these things... our generation
Thanks for the input
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What Can I Do While I Wait For Jesus To Come Back?
As you look forward to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, keep yourself busy by doing the things Jesus wants you to do (James 4:17)
Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
You speak of context but fail to see that it takes in the context of the time. In the kingdom of their Father. This is after the wicked have been destroyed. It is after the separation of the sheep and the Goats, It is after the consummation of the marriage of the Church to the groom which doesn't happen until the end of the Age/World/ It tells us this in the book of revelation if you have spiritual ears to hear and put away the deceitfulness of the flesh. One gathering, when everything else has been fulfilled at the end of the world. That gathering includes both saint and sinner to wit one is cast away into outer darkness and the other invited to sup with the master eternally.
Context is proven by the scripture. Not by assumptions and theology if you look deep enough. God is faithful, His word to perform. He doesn't waver to the right or left but goes straight on to His conclusion which He ordained in Himself.
You speak of context but fail to see that it takes in the context of the time. In the kingdom of their Father. This is after the wicked have been destroyed. It is after the separation of the sheep and the Goats, It is after the consummation of the marriage of the Church to the groom which doesn't happen until the end of the Age/World/ It tells us this in the book of revelation if you have spiritual ears to hear and put away the deceitfulness of the flesh. One gathering, when everything else has been fulfilled at the end of the world. That gathering includes both saint and sinner to wit one is cast away into outer darkness and the other invited to sup with the master eternally.
Context is proven by the scripture. Not by assumptions and theology if you look deep enough. God is faithful, His word to perform. He doesn't waver to the right or left but goes straight on to His conclusion which He ordained in Himself.
hismessenger
I agree, the goats and the sheep will be separated when the WTJ is going to take place... this is NOT a picture of that is going to happen in the "harpazo"... that takes place during the consiquences of the opening of the 6th seal... then the scene in Rev 7 takes place "after these things" and "after this"
We are not talking about the same thing...
you are talking about the event that happens before the WTJ and I am talking about the event that happens before the 7th seal is opened...
For some reason you are combining them into ONE event... In Matt 24... the elect are being gathered... Matt 25 is after all this is done and the 1,000 years are completed the goats and sheep are separated...
SAME property owner, different time,differnt place... this is the Orange
Matthew 25:31-32 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
TWO entirely different places and times...
When we see the results of the 6th seal happeneing in this time line...
This is the Apple of His eye
Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev. 6:12-14 (KJV)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, the moon became as blood; [13] the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Luke 21:25-27 (KJV) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Each one of these are talking about an event that is evidenced as being the same action...the gathering of the elect...
NOT one time are there goats mentioned...
The goats are mentioned in an entirely different part of the property at an entirely different time for an entierly different event
Apples and oranges, different trees, same property owner.
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What Can I Do While I Wait For Jesus To Come Back?
As you look forward to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, keep yourself busy by doing the things Jesus wants you to do (James 4:17)
1. Study God’s Word
2. Talk to God in prayer
3. Obey your parents
4. Love one another
5. Do good to all
6. Tell other about Jesus
Last edited by B1inHim; 6th November 2009 at 01:43 AM.
__________________ we just plant the seed, God grows It. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zeke37 I almost completely disagree whit you theory...it has what is supposition and is based on some verses that are IMO being completely misinterpreted...
I am not going to be on here for a while... thanks for your information though We are living in a very dangerous time...
This servant was allowed the priveledge of being in/shown the subject that we are talking about per Word of wisdom vision/dream and it is completely in the Word of GOD, just not like you see it...nothing added or supposed, just written with no formula... I was not afforded the oportunity of learning about this subject...it was shown and then I had to look for it in 20+years of study...
I can see that there will be no agreement concerning this and I pray the best for you...
What you call a "theory" is this servants testimony and it is not debateable, doesn't need to be defended...just and simple explianation... see it or not, it is there...
see it or not, the POST-Trib "harpazo" might be there... This is NOT a salvational issue and even though we do not agree on this subject...
WE can agree on this;
#1 Jesus Christ is Lord
#2 see # 1
Thanks again
__________________
What Can I Do While I Wait For Jesus To Come Back?
As you look forward to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, keep yourself busy by doing the things Jesus wants you to do (James 4:17)
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