Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
An electron orbiting a proton with parallel spins (pictured) has higher energy than if the spins were anti-parallel.
Neutral hydrogen consists of a single proton orbited by a single electron. As well as their orbital motion, the proton and electron also have spin. Classically, this is analogous to rotational motion (like the Earth rotating on its axis as it orbits the Sun), but as they are quantum particles the concept has a slightly different meaning.
..Because of magnetic interactions between the particles, a hydrogen atom that has the spins of the electron and proton aligned in the same direction (parallel) has slightly more energy than one where the spins of the electron and proton are in opposite directions (anti-parallel). The lowest orbital energy state of atomic hydrogen has hyperfine splitting arising from the spins of the proton and electron changing from a parallel to antiparallel configuration. This transition is highly forbidden with an extremely small probability of 2.9×10−15 s−1. This means that the time for a single isolated atom of neutral hydrogen to undergo this transition is around 10 million (107) years and so is unlikely to be seen in a laboratory on Earth..."
At the top left of the plate is a schematic representation of the hyperfine transition of hydrogen, which is the most abundant element in the universe. Below this symbol is a small vertical line to represent the binary digit 1. This spin-flip transition of a hydrogen atom from electron state spin up to electron state spin down can specify a unit of length (wavelength, 21 cm) as well as a unit of time (frequency, 1420 MHz). Both units are used as measurements in the other symbols.
Since there cannot be demonstrated that there was this time, creationists can assume there was not. ( to demonstrate it we would need a universe proven to be in this state in the past) That means that what they are seeing did not take 10 million years. That means that the line man draws out to the universe is totally wrong. So, we must face the possibility that the hydrogen we are seeing here, is not in a universe state we are familiar with. This means the universe would not be not homogeneous. In this caseman did not trace the lines that came from God, but drew a line that came from man!
Perhaps there is something fundamental here I am missing. That is why we all are here, to learn.
Sagan had this put on the Voyageur and they put it on the Pioneer crafts as well. It is so basic to their standard model, it is a chief cornerstone.
So now we have the expansion of the universe cornerstone (redshift) undermined. I suppose we could toss in interpretation of the CMB, and a few other foundational cornerstones as well.
This is a case for Scotland yard.
__________________ If the flood happened when laws were different than this present state we know, all bets are off for present state science being able to extrapolate backwards in any meaningful or accurate way.
Last edited by dad; 29th October 2009 at 04:29 AM.
You use a great many quotation marks, and cite nothing. Sadly, your only links are to Wikipedia.
I think that until you at least bother to properly cite those quotes, its nothing but bluffing.
Would this be a stall tactic? To avoid addressing the obvious implications of the facts of the case? Are you seriously questioning the facts in the articles? Do you think they made up the Hydrogen line? Do you think Sagan never really oversaw the Voyageur plaque affair? Do you actually doubt spectral lines, and the utmost importance thet Hydrogen has in forming the basis of man's would be knowledge of the cosmos?
Do you think I phot shopped this record picture?
Have you never heard any of this basic stuff before, L student? Who was your professor, Moriarty, by any chance?
__________________ If the flood happened when laws were different than this present state we know, all bets are off for present state science being able to extrapolate backwards in any meaningful or accurate way.
Would this be a stall tactic? To avoid addressing the obvious implications of the facts of the case? Are you seriously questioning the facts in the articles? Do you think they made up the Hydrogen line? Do you think Sagan never really oversaw the Voyageur plaque affair? Do you actually doubt spectral lines, and the utmost importance thet Hydrogen has in forming the basis of man's would be knowledge of the cosmos? Have you never heard any of this basic stuff before, L student? Who was your professor, Moriarty, by any chance?
Oh, I see.
Unfortunately, I have a PhD that disagrees with your home-grown interpretation of this aspect of physics.
Specifically:
Blah blah blah, same things that were in the Wikipedia article about how unlikely it is blah blah blah. And then:
...It may seem from the above that the probability of detecting cold hydrogen gas through this mechanism is very small. To start with, the collision to align the spins of the electron and proton in the hydrogenatom is a rare event in the low density environment of the interstellar medium. Then to wait for millions of years for the electron to flip its spin back to the lower energy configuration, it would seem that detection of this event would be unlikely. However, one must remember that there are a LOT of neutral hydrogenatoms in the interstellar medium, and at any one time some fraction of them will be in their slightly excited state. The spin-flip transition can only be used to trace the distribution of neutral hydrogen in the Universe. For regions rich in molecular hydrogen (e.g. molecular clouds), astronomers must use a different tracer. This is generally the carbon monoxide molecule (CO) which has a characteristic emission at the shorter wavelength of 2.6 mm.
Wow. That was easy. I found a refutation for your big point by searching "Spin flip transition" on Google
( to demonstrate it we would need a universe proven to be in this state in the past)
Ah, I shoulda known you were just playing the different states card again. A sheep in badly placed and unintelligibly arranged quotation marks is still a sheep.
Here, have a cookie.
__________________ On "illegal" immigration: "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..." -The Statue of Liberty
On the alleged connection between Hitler and Atheism:
"For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties." -Hitler, Mein Kampf, Volume II, Chapter X
On gay marriage (or any other discrimination) and the Bible:
"God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean." -Paul the Apostle, Acts 10:28
Ah, I shoulda known you were just playing the different states card again. A sheep in badly placed and unintelligibly arranged quotation marks is still a sheep.
Here, have a cookie.
I'm baffled. This was really easy. Does Dad really think science hasn't already answered these questions?
Oh well, hooray for PRATTs. I have a hard time believing that anything that can be refuted by the first hit on a Google search can be anything but a PRATT.
Refutation?? It looks more like a rehash of the content of what I proposed. Adding in molecular hydrogen does not take away from anything I posted. In fact, I think if you looked into it, you would not offer it up as anything for your side.
__________________ If the flood happened when laws were different than this present state we know, all bets are off for present state science being able to extrapolate backwards in any meaningful or accurate way.
Fascinating how you dance around and don't even mention the refutation offered in my post. I'll give it to you again. Hopefully, the more succinct, the harder time you'll have ignoring the point.
"However, one must remember that there are a LOT of neutral hydrogenatoms in the interstellar medium, and at any one time some fraction of them will be in their slightly excited state."
Guys, stop feeding the troll. Dad isn't interested in discussion. He's simply trolling.
Probably true, but you have to take Poe's law into consideration. How do we separate Dad's trolling from the real thing? What if he's actually serious this time?
Linear Mode
