Okay Catholics, does abortion...

Krentis · #1 27th October 2009, 09:27 PM

...merely trump all individual political issues, or does abortion trump the sum of all issues, politically? Discuss.

FWIW, I say the former, as I've seen nothing indicating otherwise from the Church, but I have been called a baby-killer for having the oppinion that certain groups of evil policies could outweigh the single evil legal abortion issue, making the pro-legal-abortion candidate the one that we should vote for. For the sake of simplicity, assume that you are only given two candidates to choose from.

Note: This is not a political thread, this is a thread in which Catholic morality (that's just plain old "morality" to those of us who happen to be Catholic) and voting is to be discussed. I don't care to discuss any political candidates or parties.

Davidnic · #2 27th October 2009, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Krentis

...merely trump all individual political issues, or does abortion trump the sum of all issues, politically? Discuss.

Yes, aboriton trumps all issues whether one by one or as a whole.

But and a huge but here....that does not justify supporting other policies that attack the dignity of life. In those cases we are called to oppose those too and not take them as "necessay evils"

Standing against aboriton does not give one the right to stand against it by standing on the poor and needy.

Now, this makes voting a problem sometimes. But a vote that furthers abortion can never be justified, in that way it is an issue with no proportional counter.

Dark_Lite · #3 27th October 2009, 09:50 PM

MODERATOR HELMET

This thread is going places. That much I can see. However, if it derails into political mudslinging, flaming, or subtle/not so subtle disrespectful jabs at each other, it will be locked with extreme prejudice and posts will be dealt with as appropriate. Please keep in mind the political moratorium, as well as the teachings of the Church on this issue.

That being said, carry on.

Krentis · #4 27th October 2009, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Davidnic

Yes, aboriton trumps all issues whether one by one or as a whole.

But and a huge but here....that does not justify supporting other policies that attack the dignity of life. In those cases we are called to oppose those too and not take them as "necessay evils"

Standing against aboriton does not give one the right to stand against it by standing on the poor and needy.

Now, this makes voting a problem sometimes. But a vote that furthers abortion can never be justified, in that way it is an issue with no proportional counter.

Is voting for the candidate who favors legal abortion in cases of rape, saving the mother's life, and incest morally worse than voting for a candidate who favors killing all non-redheads on their 1st birthday?

Davidnic · #5 27th October 2009, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Krentis

Is voting for the candidate who favors legal abortion in cases of rape, saving the mother's life, and incest morally worse than voting for a candidate who favors killing all non-redheads on their 1st birthday?

That would be another intrinsic evil and a form of genocide. In that case you have what is called, in moral theology, unjust alternative choice and you have to oppose both with all your ability.

It is not morally worse, but it is morally identical since it is murdering the defenseless and innocent in a systematic manner...exactly like abortion. That said it needs to be clear...issues of life of the mother need to be viewed with the principle of double effect and a medical procedure that attempts to save both but results in the death of one with that death not being the intention...is not abortion. As far as rape and incest (the less than 1% of these are often cases rape and (not or) incest) we do not enact the death penalty on people for their father's crimes. So none of that mitigates the moral wrongness of abortion.

And before people say that Krentis is posing an impossible hypothetical position...who 60 years ago would think we would have people who openly support aboriton as a matter of convenience? Countries have elected people who openly support genocide, so his analogy is not unwarranted or impossible no matter how it may seem on the surface.

The question is...can anything allow a vote for someone who supports abortion? I would answer and argue that from Catholic teaching the answer is no. Now, in extreme situations, like the one proposed you are at a full breakdown of social structure and respect for life (like in 30's Germany, some African countries in the past like Uganda and Turkey at the Armenian genocide) so in those cases it is a struggle to find any moral option. Dark times that require examples of heroic faith to reject all the choices that attack dignity.

ZooMom · #6 27th October 2009, 11:23 PM

I am in 100% agreement with David. S'all I gotta say.

helenofbritain · #7 27th October 2009, 11:46 PM

OK, then... coming from a place with no death penalty AND major parties with fairly similar abortion platforms (ie, it's legal before 20 weeks and it's not going to change

) I'd like to thrown in an extra spanner.

I know, from having asked about this before, that there are posters in this forum who are both anti-abortion AND pro-death penalty.

Where does this fit in? Why doesn't the death penalty get to trump all other issues?

And yes, I am aware of what the Catechism says:

Capital Punishment
2266 The State's effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. the primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.67
2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'[John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.]

Krentis · #8 27th October 2009, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Davidnic

It is not morally worse, but it is morally identical since it is murdering the defenseless and innocent in a systematic manner...exactly like abortion.

That said it needs to be clear...issues of life of the mother need to be viewed with the principle of double effect and a medical procedure that attempts to save both but results in the death of one with that death not being the intention...is not abortion. As far as rape and incest (the less than 1% of these are often cases rape and (not or) incest) we do not enact the death penalty on people for their father's crimes. So none of that mitigates the moral wrongness of abortion.

Be careful, I think you're muddying the waters. I suspect that from your point of view, the % of abortions that are had due to rape and incest are irrelevant.

[quick]The question is...can anything allow a vote for someone who supports abortion? I would answer and argue that from Catholic teaching the answer is no. Now, in extreme situations, like the one proposed you are at a full breakdown of social structure and respect for life (like in 30's Germany, some African countries in the past like Uganda and Turkey at the Armenian genocide) so in those cases it is a struggle to find any moral option. Dark times that require examples of heroic faith to reject all the choices that attack dignity.[/quote]

The question is - if you're given the option of voting for the guy who wants to kill some people or the guy who wants to kill many more people, can you vote for the lesser evil? Not that the act of abortion is a lesser evil than genocide, but in this example, the number of times the evil would be likely to happen. Dozens of dead non-redheads vs 1 abortion.

Of course one would be expected to fght with the means he posseses the evil regimes, we're talking about - but I can't wrap my mind around why one could not vote for the candidate who favored less deaths, as a means to save at least some lives until the whole system can be fixed. I think it'd be rather irresponsible NOT to vote for the guy who wants to kill less people.

Thanks for talking through this with me, I need these sort of emental exercises to help me understand what I believe and why.

Krentis · #9 27th October 2009, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by helenofbritain

OK, then... coming from a place with no death penalty AND major parties with fairly similar abortion platforms (ie, it's legal before 20 weeks and it's not going to change ) I'd like to thrown in an extra spanner.

I know, from having asked about this before, that there are posters in this forum who are both anti-abortion AND pro-death penalty.

Where does this fit in? Why doesn't the death penalty get to trump all other issues?

Probably because the death penalty is not *always* wrong. Certainly in Australia and the US it is, but there are hypotheticals where the death penalty is okay, there are none for abortion.

I love the way you ended your post with
(paraphrasing) "If you're going to reply, say something! No drive-by Catechism snippets." Good on ya!

Gwendolyn · #10 28th October 2009, 12:01 AM

For Americans, it apparently trumps everything else. Which means that you have to vote republican or you are in mortal sin and going to hell.

Ridiculous, if you ask me.

Abortion is a serious evil, but when that is tempered by more deaths by capital punishment and more deaths in war, I do not think that the decision-making is so clear-cut.