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  #11  
Old 28th October 2009, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Gwendolyn View Post
For Americans, it apparently trumps everything else. Which means that you have to vote republican or you are in mortal sin and going to hell.

Ridiculous, if you ask me.

Abortion is a serious evil, but when that is tempered by more deaths by capital punishment and more deaths in war, I do not think that the decision-making is so clear-cut.

American Catholics do not have to vote for a Republican who supports evil. They can (and should, imo) vote for a non-evil 3rd party candidate, in hopes that their votes will change the political landscape. The citizens in my hypothetical cannot.

again - let's stay on the topic of my hypothetical. I'm afraid that anything else will be smacked down by the powers that be. If you want to have a political discussion, there are many places we can go where such discusssions are not forbidden.
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  #12  
Old 28th October 2009, 12:16 AM
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Have done me some digging: Declaration on procured abortion, 18 November 1974

Krentis, it would seem that it does trump everything:
10. In regard to the mutual rights and duties of the person and of society, it belongs to moral teaching to enlighten consciences; it belongs to the law to specify and organize external behavior. There is precisely a certain number of rights which society is not in a position to grant since these rights precede society; but society has the function to preserve and to enforce them. These are the greater part of those which are today called "human rights" and which our age boasts of having formulated.


11. The first right of the human person is his life. He has other goods and some are more precious, but this one is fundamental - the condition of all the others. Hence it must be protected above all others. It does not belong to society, nor does it belong to public authority in any form to recognize this right for some and not for others: all discrimination is evil, whether it be founded on race, sex, color or religion. It is not recognition by another that constitutes this right. This right is antecedent to its recognition; it demands recognition and it is strictly unjust to refuse it.


12. Any discrimination based on the various stages of life is no more justified than any other discrimination. The right to life remains complete in an old person, even one greatly weakened; it is not lost by one who is incurably sick. The right to life is no less to be respected in the small infant just born than in the mature person. In reality, respect for human life is called for from the time that the process of generation begins. From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother, it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already.


13. To this perpetual evidence - perfectly independent of the discussions on the moment of animation[19] - modern genetic science brings valuable confirmation. It has demonstrated that, from the first instant, there is established the program of what this living being will be: a man, this individual man with his characteristic aspects already well determined. Right from fertilization is begun the adventure of a human life, and each of its capacities requires time- a rather lengthy time- to find its place and to be in a position to act. The least that can be said is that present science, in its most evolved state, does not give any substantial support to those who defend abortion. Moreover, it is not up to biological sciences to make a definitive judgment on questions which are properly philosophical and moral such as the moment when a human person is constituted or the legitimacy of abortion. From a moral point of view this is certain: even if a doubt existed concerning whether the fruit of conception is already a human person, it is objectively a grave sin to dare to risk murder. "The one who will be a man is already one."[20]


14. Divine law and natural reason, therefore, exclude all right to the direct killing of an innocent man. However, if the reasons given to justify an abortion were always manifestly evil and valueless the problem would not be so dramatic. The gravity of the problem comes from the fact that in certain cases, perhaps in quite a considerable number of cases, by denying abortion one endangers important values to which it is normal to attach great value, and which may sometimes even seem to have priority. We do not deny these very great difficulties. It may be a serious question of health, sometimes of life or death, for the mother; it may be the burden represented by an additional child, especially if there are good reasons to fear that the child will be abnormal or retarded; it may be the importance attributed in different classes of society to considerations of honor or dishonor, of loss of social standing, and so forth. We proclaim only that none of these reasons can ever objectively confer the right to dispose of another's life, even when that life is only beginning. With regard to the future unhappiness of the child, no one, not even the father or mother, can act as its substitute- even if it is still in the embryonic stage- to choose in the child's name, life or death. The child itself, when grown up, will never have the right to choose suicide; no more may his parents choose death for the child while it is not of an age to decide for itself. Life is too fundamental a value to be weighed against even very serious disadvantages.[21]


15. The movement for the emancipation of women, insofar as it seeks essentially to free them from all unjust discrimination, is on perfectly sound ground.[22] In the different forms of cultural background there is a great deal to be done in this regard. But one cannot change nature. Nor can one exempt women, any more than men, from what nature demands of them. Furthermore, all publicly recognized freedom is always limited by the certain rights of others.
Although if you want to be technical, it technically doesn't say anything about voting.

This is a long extract:
20. These arguments and others in addition that are heard from varying quarters are not conclusive. It is true that civil law cannot expect to cover the whole field of morality or to punish all faults. No one expects it to do so. It must often tolerate what is in fact a lesser evil, in order to avoid a greater one. One must, however, be attentive to what a change in legislation can represent. Many will take as authorization what is perhaps only the abstention from punishment.

Even more, in the present case, this very renunciation seems at the very least to admit that the legislator no longer considers abortion a crime against human life, since murder is still always severely punished. It is true that it is not the task of the law to choose between points of view or to impose one rather than another. But the life of the child takes precedence over all opinions. One cannot invoke freedom of thought to destroy this life.


21. The role of law is not to record what is done, hut to help in promoting improvement. It is at all times the task of the State to preserve each person's rights and to protect the weakest. In order to do so the State will have to right many wrongs. The law is not obliged to sanction everything, but it cannot act contrary to a law which is deeper and more majestic than any human law: the natural law engraved in men's hearts by the Creator as a norm which reason clarifies and strives to formulate properly, and which one must always struggle to understand better, but which it is always wrong to contradict. Human law can abstain from punishment, but it cannot declare to be right what would be opposed to the natural law, for this opposition suffices to give the assurance that a law is not a law at all.


22. It must in any case be clearly understood that whatever may be laid down by civil law in this matter, man can never obey a law which is in itself immoral, and such is the case of a law which would admit in principle the liceity of abortion. Nor can he take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it. Moreover, he may not collaborate in its application. It is, for instance, inadmissible that doctors or nurses should find themselves obliged to cooperate closely in abortions and have to choose between the law of God and their professional situation.



I thought this next bit was interesting - I know it's an argument raised by "liberals" a lot around here, which never gets a guernsey:


23. On the contrary, it is the task of law to pursue a reform of society and of conditions of life in all milieux, starting with the most deprived, so that always and everywhere it may be possible to give every child coming into this world a welcome worthy of a person. Help for families and for unmarried mothers, assured grants for children, a statute for illegitimate children and reasonable arrangements for adoption - a whole positive policy must be put into force so that there will always be a concrete, honorable and possible alternative to abortion.


24. Following one's conscience in obedience to the law of God is not always the easy way. One must not fail to recognize the weight of the sacrifices and the burdens which it can impose. Heroism is sometimes called for in order to remain faithful to the requirements of the divine law. Therefore, we must emphasize that the path of true progress of the human person passes through this constant fidelity to a conscience maintained in uprightness and truth; and we must exhort all those who are able to do so to lighten the burdens still crushing so many men and women, families and children, who are placed in situations to which, in human terms, there is no solution.


25. A Christian's outlook cannot be limited to the horizon of life in this world. He knows that during the present life another one is being prepared, one of such importance that it is in its light that judgments must be made.[26] From this viewpoint there is no absolute misfortune here below, not even the terrible sorrow of bringing up a handicapped child. This is the contradiction proclaimed by the Lord: "Happy those who mourn: they shall be comforted" (Mt. 5:5). To measure happiness by the absence of sorrow and misery in this world is to turn one's back on the Gospel.


26. But this does not mean that one can remain indifferent to these sorrows and miseries. Every man and woman with feeling, and certainly every Christian, must be ready to do what he can to remedy them. This is the law of charity, of which the first preoccupation must always be the establishment of justice. One can never approve of abortion; but it is above all necessary to combat its causes. This includes political action, which will be in particular the task of the law. But it is necessary at the same time to influence morality and to do everything possible to help families, mothers and children. Considerable progress in the service of life has been accomplished by medicine. One can hope that such progress will continue, in accordance with the vocation of doctors, which is not to suppress life but to care for it and favor it as much as possible. It is equally desirable that, in suitable institutions, or, in their absence, in the outpouring of Christian generosity and charity every form of assistance should be developed.
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  #13  
Old 28th October 2009, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by helenofbritain View Post
Have done me some digging: Declaration on procured abortion, 18 November 1974

Krentis, it would seem that it does trump everything:
Thanks! Although it isn't clear to me from reading that bit that abortion trumps all other evils combined. Is abortion the greatest evil, or is it greater than the sum of all other evils?
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  #14  
Old 28th October 2009, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Krentis View Post
Probably because the death penalty is not *always* wrong. Certainly in Australia and the US it is, but there are hypotheticals where the death penalty is okay, there are none for abortion.

I love the way you ended your post with
(paraphrasing) "If you're going to reply, say something! No drive-by Catechism snippets." Good on ya!
Mmmm, I hear you, but as the late, great JPII said, there's basically no reason it should happen.

So is it just that (one assumes hardened) criminals are easier to see die than tiny babies?


Looking at your scenario:
Worldwide last year there were 41 million abortions (down from 45 million the year before that, so that's a good thing).

There are more than 41 million non-red-headed people on the planet. I'd say there's more than that in America alone.

Therefore, since basically we're talking state sanctioned abortion vs state sanctioned genocide, I'd have to vote for the pro-abortion candidate, because less lives would be lost.

Of course, given those two options, I'd be torn over putting in a donkey vote (that means informal) so I didn't vote for either of them, and in voting for the one who meant less death...
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  #15  
Old 28th October 2009, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Krentis View Post
Thanks! Although it isn't clear to me from reading that bit that abortion trumps all other evils combined. Is abortion the greatest evil, or is it greater than the sum of all other evils?
This line clinches it for me:

11. The first right of the human person is his life. He has other goods and some are more precious, but this one is fundamental - the condition of all the others. Hence it must be protected above all others.
If you're not alive to have rights, there's not much point in having rights, is there?
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Old 28th October 2009, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Krentis View Post
Thanks! Although it isn't clear to me from reading that bit that abortion trumps all other evils combined. Is abortion the greatest evil, or is it greater than the sum of all other evils?
I wonder about this all the time, and it is the reason that I despise elections and voting - because, no matter what, I always leave the poll feeling like I have put one more nail in the coffin. Like I have let God down.

In Canada, we don't have a thoroughly pro-life party. And there are not always fourth- or fifth-party candidates to vote for (unless you want to vote for the commies or the marijuana party - serious). So no matter what, I feel condemned.

The current party in power isn't doing anything in terms of abortion - they are even cutting social programs that take away the opportunities for women to choose something other than abortion. They also support capital punishment and the war. The other three parties think abortion is a good thing, but they have much better social programs to support single women, and they oppose the war and some oppose capital punishment.

Rock and a hard place, honestly.

And if abortion does trump everything else, then I will cry my eyes out as I put a check mark next to the current party's name. Because no matter what, my decision means some evil is going to occur.
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Old 28th October 2009, 02:30 PM
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certain groups of evil policies could outweigh the single evil legal abortion issue, making the pro-legal-abortion candidate the one that we should vote for.
it is possible that certain groups of evil polivies could outweigh the single evil legal abortion, but i have never seen that
something more evil then saying it is ok to murder babies, i mean if i had to pick between the anti-christ and a pro-choice politicion i would vote for the guy for abortion, or like if a cloned Hitler ran against Bill Clinton I would vote for Mr.Clinton
now if the question is just, what does the guy think about capitol punishment, or what he thinks about a war we are already stuck in, or what style of capitolism he prefers, then these differances are trivial compared to the statement "it is ok for a woman to murder her own child"
war is bad, but we have always had wars, murder is bad and we have always had murder, we have not always had a society that says it is ok to kill your own child
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Old 28th October 2009, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhamiel View Post
it is possible that certain groups of evil polivies could outweigh the single evil legal abortion, but i have never seen that
something more evil then saying it is ok to murder babies, i mean if i had to pick between the anti-christ and a pro-choice politicion i would vote for the guy for abortion, or like if a cloned Hitler ran against Bill Clinton I would vote for Mr.Clinton
now if the question is just, what does the guy think about capitol punishment, or what he thinks about a war we are already stuck in, or what style of capitolism he prefers, then these differances are trivial compared to the statement "it is ok for a woman to murder her own child"
war is bad, but we have always had wars, murder is bad and we have always had murder, we have not always had a society that says it is ok to kill your own child

That's pretrty much where I stand as well. Abortion is evil, but there could exist a greater evil than a mleader or government who is pro-abortion but otherwise fair and just. I am not in any way stating or implying that such is or is not the case someplace in the world today, just merely pointing out that I think that there exists the possibility that there could be greater cumulative evils than abortion, and that there exists the possibility that voting for the pro-abortion candidate may in fact be the moral thing to do. I thank God that it is unlikely that I'll ever have to make that decision - in the United States, there will likely always be a candidate, though perhaps not a popular one, who is against abortion, torture, unjust war, capital punnishment, the mistreatment of the poor, etc.
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Old 28th October 2009, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Krentis View Post
I thank God that it is unlikely that I'll ever have to make that decision - in the United States, there will likely always be a candidate, though perhaps not a popular one, who is against abortion, torture, unjust war, capital punnishment, the mistreatment of the poor, etc.
So you mean if you are in a situation with no third party and you have to vote? I have to say, I almost always vote 3rd party.
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Other causes demand commitment, abortion demands complicity. Other causes survive by energy and attention. The survival of the abortion industry - and it is an industry - depends upon avoidance and silence.
Bob Casey Sr.

If pregnancy presents a challenge, do we as a society rise to the challenge by dispensing with the child? And when a pregnancy comes at a difficult time, what is the worthier response? Do we surround mother and child with protection and love, or do we hold out to her the cold comfort of a trip to an abortionist? Where is our true character as a nation to be seen - let's ask ourselves this question: Where is our true character to be seen, in an adoptive home, or in an abortion clinic? Who are we? Who are we America? That question deserves an answer.
Bob Casey Sr.



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Old 28th October 2009, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidnic View Post
So you mean if you are in a situation with no third party and you have to vote? I have to say, I almost always vote 3rd party.
Yup. From the OP:
"For the sake of simplicity, assume that you are only given two candidates to choose from."


Yes, I know "from" should have been "for". Oops. I did not state that you are forced to vote in my hypothetical - though I think that if voting for the lesser cumulative evil will save lives one would be morally bound to do so (while also doing what he or she can outside the voting booth to improve the situation and create a culture of respect for all human life).
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